Just an FYI

[DHK]

But of course. Anything you all 'DO' is never considered a WORK in your (whatever) system even though YOU DID IT.

Is this an admission that you did not trust Christ as your Savior, because it would involve something you must do (in your mind) --Like putting YOUR faith in Him--a command from the Bible, without which no man can be saved.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by preacher4truth
You've called our salvation a salvation of works.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthre...ce#post1702081

More:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthre...ce#post1677054

I think it is more accurate to say that DHK was talking about the Calvinist idea that "faith" and "belief" are "works" in the "saved by works" theme. He was saying that if you take that Calvinist idea to its logical conclusion then salvation is salvation by works.

Arminians do not usually consider that a work that we do to save ourselves as if "accepting the gift" is the same work as "creating the gift" or "using the gift as a good steward". Both of the latter two concepts are accepted as "works".

But to simply "believe" is merely the response that we have to the Gospel - and then the "works" are things like choosing to be Baptized or choosing to Obey the Word of God, choosing to be a missionary, or publicly confess Christ (the 1Cor 13 list comes to mind) etc.

Well, thanks for clearing up the obvious.

Thank you for noticing that. Very often I end my posts with "Just stating the obvious".

I could have done it there as well.

But of course. Anything you all 'DO' is never considered a WORK in your (whatever) system even though YOU DID IT.

Well obviously in my post I did give a list of things we consider "works" -- I think we both can see that point.

But as for why Arminians do not consider the act of accepting a free gift as "the work of earning the gift" -- well again - the obvious.
It is called "the real world".

When a man hands you a million dollar check - and you hold out your hand to accept it -- only a Calvinist would then say "so it is not a gift after all - that guy earned that million by works - when he held out his hand".

And of course even a Calvinist would not say that about "real life". (Obviously) -- but they seem to think it will fly when describing Bible doctrine.

Go figure.:jesus:

We see faith as not the cause as you do, we see it as evidence.

The first cause is God. Who "So loved the WORLD that HE gave -- yes really".

God who "draws ALL unto Him" John 12:32 and even Calvinists will admit that the supernatural drawing of God enables the free will to accept - the choice to accept - the depravity disables.

It is God who "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

The lost sinner is inabled to respond by the drawing of God and is motivated to respond by the work of the Holy Spirit -

"I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in" Rev 3

:godisgood:
So when you use the word "cause" and claim that Arminians start with the lost sinner as "the cause" of salvation - you are not accurate.

And yet God does not say "Behold I arbitrarily select out the FEW of Matt 7 to bust down their doors and wake them up as my children to discover that I am already in the house and we are already family" as some Calvinists may have at first imagined.

"He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him NOT" John 1.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Yeshua1]

Is this an admission that you did not trust Christ as your Savior, because it would involve something you must do (in your mind) --Like putting YOUR faith in Him--a command from the Bible, without which no man can be saved.

God , knowing that I was dead in my sins and transgressions, made it possible to hve me receive the lord jesus, by quickening my heart/mind to rrespond to the Lord when I heard of Him!

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you for noticing that. Very often I end my posts with "Just stating the obvious".

I could have done it there as well.





Well obviously in my post I did give a list of things we consider "works" -- I think we both can see that point.

But as for why Arminians do not consider the act of accepting a free gift as "the work of earning the gift" -- well again - the obvious.
It is called "the real world".

When a man hands you a million dollar check - and you hold out your hand to accept it -- only a Calvinist would then say "so it is not a gift after all - that guy earned that million by works - when he held out his hand".

And of course even a Calvinist would not say that about "real life". (Obviously) -- but they seem to think it will fly when describing Bible doctrine.

Go figure.:jesus:



The first cause is God. Who "So loved the WORLD that HE gave -- yes really".

God who "draws ALL unto Him" John 12:32 and even Calvinists will admit that the supernatural drawing of God enables the free will to accept - the choice to accept - the depravity disables.

It is God who "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

The lost sinner is inabled to respond by the drawing of God and is motivated to respond by the work of the Holy Spirit -

"I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in" Rev 3

:godisgood:
So when you use the word "cause" and claim that Arminians start with the lost sinner as "the cause" of salvation - you are not accurate.

And yet God does not say "Behold I arbitrarily select out the FEW of Matt 7 to bust down their doors and wake them up as my children to discover that I am already in the house and we are already family" as some Calvinists may have at first imagined.

"He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him NOT" John 1.

in Christ,

Bob

the main difference is that calvinists see Jesus death provoded for JUST those elected by the Father to get saved by his death, as he graces ONLY thsoe he deemed to save, and they will all get saved! definite atonement

Arminians see Jesus death intended to save all, and Godgraces all to be able to freely respond, and lives it up to us to decide for Jesus or not! Potential atonement

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"For as many as are being LED by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." (Romans 8:14)
To gain salvation, a BAC must be willing to co-operate with the Holy Spirit in removing sin!
God's Spirit will lead him to repent daily of his sins (1 John 1:9), and other important things.
E.G. no BAC will be saved who has unforgiveness or ANY unrepented-of habitual sin in his life.

First time I heard of a BAC who
might not been saved; who
has <<unforgiven sins>>; who
has <<unrepented-of habitual sin in his life>>

First time I hear that <<God's Spirit will lead (the BAC) to repent>> but does not make him <<willing ... to be saved>>.

It is the first time in my life (by way of speaking) that I hear "as many as are being LED by the Spirit of God", might not or could not or WORSE never were "sons of God."

It's a STRANGE Gospel you believe in!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Is this an admission that you did not trust Christ as your Savior, because it would involve something you must do (in your mind) --Like putting YOUR faith in Him--a command from the Bible, without which no man can be saved.

Is this trust you put in Christ your work or the work of the Spirit?

 

[DHK]

Is this trust you put in Christ your work or the work of the Spirit?

The Bible gives much instruction about salvation.
Here is a couple of facts you need to understand.

First the ministry of the Holy Spirit is given for us in John 16:

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
--He convicts of sin. That is one thing he does.

Second. The Bible gives this instruction, and it is repeated in dozens of Scriptures many times over.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
--Note that it doesn't say: "Believe with God's faith."
That is the ludicrous belief of the Calvinist.
It's obvious literal and straightforward meaning is "believe with your own faith on the Lord Jesus Christ," or
"have faith (your own) in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

One doesn't get saved by using someone else's saved. Since when was such an absurd unbiblical doctrine doctrine taught.
Was it an invention of Calvin? I don't know. But it is not Biblical.

 

[Yeshua1]

The Bible gives much instruction about salvation.
Here is a couple of facts you need to understand.

First the ministry of the Holy Spirit is given for us in John 16:
[/SIZE]
John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
--He convicts of sin. That is one thing he does.

Second. The Bible gives this instruction, and it is repeated in dozens of Scriptures many times over.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
--Note that it doesn't say: "Believe with God's faith."
That is the ludicrous belief of the Calvinist.
It's obvious literal and straightforward meaning is "believe with your own faith on the Lord Jesus Christ," or
"have faith (your own) in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

One doesn't get saved by using someone else's saved. Since when was such an absurd unbiblical doctrine doctrine taught.
Was it an invention of Calvin? I don't know. But it is not Biblical.

It is NOT the faith of God, for he does not need nor use faith, as he is God, but the faith is he enabling/quickening the Spriit does on a sinner in order to allow them to be able to receive jesus and get saved!

 

[DHK]

It is NOT the faith of God, for he does not need nor use faith, as he is God, but the faith is he enabling/quickening the Spriit does on a sinner in order to allow them to be able to receive jesus and get saved!

First, you just said God does not need faith.
Second, you said it is the faith (that God gives) enabling the Spirit to allow him to receive Jesus.
That is a contradiction.

It is either God's faith to give or it is not. You said both in one statement.
God does not give faith to the unsaved or the unregenerate. Such a statement or belief is absurd. Faith, in the Bible is used in two ways: it is a spiritual gift or a fruit of the Spirit. Does God gift the fruit of the Spirit to the unsaved? Ridiculous!!
The Calvinist position here is totally untenable but they won't admit it.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I see you're still practicing insults and name calling, something you disdain in others, call others on, yet practice yourself. Go take a gander at Romans 2.

In addition, if you or anyone else believes salvation is lost you've added and taken away from the Gospel. And you do have many other errors which are well known.

I only have two cheeks to turn; after that, I will respond appropriately and accurately to attacks and lies, which is what I did with you.

You are a slanderer, a liar, a false accuser. Those are not attacks but truthful and accurate descriptions. This has been proven by my statements of what I believe in response to your false accusations. So, even your username is a falsehood.

The first Baptists in England did not believe OSAS. I stand with them and their spiritual descendants.

I admit to being able to be wrong, something you and some others here think you are incapable of. But I have some news for you, sonny: Be prepared for a fall. A haughty spirit is destined for a fall.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
--Note that it doesn't say: "Believe with God's faith."
That is the ludicrous belief of the Calvinist.
It's obvious literal and straightforward meaning is "believe with your own faith on the Lord Jesus Christ," or
"have faith (your own) in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

One doesn't get saved by using someone else's saved. Since when was such an absurd unbiblical doctrine doctrine taught.
Was it an invention of Calvin? I don't know. But it is not Biblical.

No; I do not know your Gospel, DHK.

It is Calvinism indeed to <<"Believe with God's faith.">> Thank God that is what I believe.

<<Ludicrous>>?! What is lucicrous about believing with the faith God gives one????

An <<invention of Calvin>>?!

SURE! AGAINST ROMAN CATHOLICISM IT WAS!!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

But there lies a deeper fallacy beneath your ‘thinking’. The above is only the superficial.

Your actual falacy is that it is <<impossible to keep>> God’s Commandments = Christ’s Commandments. Your even deeper preconception is that God’s and Christ’s Commandments are not only different, but OPPOSING.

And at the bottom of all this, lurks your own make-belief that the Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD is bogus.

You are like a wild animal in captivity trying to find a way out of its cage. You storm every sliver of LIGHT unable to realise it is in vain. And all you gain is to cause the cart on which your cage is staged, to totter a bit.

 

[steaver]

But there lies a deeper fallacy beneath your ‘thinking’. The above is only the superficial.

Your actual falacy is that it is <<impossible to keep>> God’s Commandments = Christ’s Commandments. Your even deeper preconception is that God’s and Christ’s Commandments are not only different, but OPPOSING.

And at the bottom of all this, lurks your own make-belief that the Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD is bogus.

You are like a wild animal in captivity trying to find a way out of its cage. You storm every sliver of LIGHT unable to realise it is in vain. And all you gain is to cause the cart on which your cage is staged, to totter a bit.

Just curious Gerhard, do you break God's commandments?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Just curious Gerhard, do you break God's commandments?

I do; I do nothing than break the Commandments of God. That is what Christ came for: for my sins.

Did you know that?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

And you know what?

I break the Commandments of Jesus Christ DESPITE HE HIMSELF said they are not impossible, but EASY.

Grace is ununderstandable.

That is my Calvinism which I without stopping thank God for.

 

[steaver]

I do; I do nothing than break the Commandments of God. That is what Christ came for: for my sins.

Did you know that?

I do, a couple folks here don't understand the work of Christ. They want to have their own works justify themselves.

 

[Yeshua1]

And you know what?

I break the Commandments of Jesus Christ DESPITE HE HIMSELF said they are not impossible, but EASY.

Grace is ununderstandable.

That is my Calvinism which I without stopping thank God for.

the yoke of jesus is light, for He took on Himself the full weight and kept for us the Law of God perfectly, but apart from His Grace ...

theCommandmnets and thelaw will kill us, as NONE apart from him can "keep them!"

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 

[Yeshua1]

I do, a couple folks here don't understand the work of Christ. They want to have their own works justify themselves.

That is due to us being sinful creatures, who really have NO understanding of just HOW Holy an infinite God really is!

 

[steaver]

That is due to us being sinful creatures, who really have NO understanding of just HOW Holy an infinite God really is!

Amen! They go about establishing their own righteousness misunderstanding the purpose of the Law.