Just an FYI

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
And the beauty is you can find all of those "persevere" and the "IF you hold fast firm until the end" statements in the Bible.

1 Tim 4 15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. 16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you."

Heb 3
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
...12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

So according to your application here of 1Tim4:15, if I persevere those who hear me will stay saved also.

I didn't provide any paragraphs of "application" as we can all see. I merely "Quoted" the texts that you are complaining about.

And in this case I quoted them as being examples of texts containing some of the snippet phrases DHK used in his post (to which I responded above).

It is beyond dispute that those same phrases can be found in the texts above - I simply point out that they exist as actual Bible texts.

Continue your objection to the texts if you like. I have some popcorn here and will gladly observe.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[evangelist-7]

Another favorite verse of those who read and understand the NT is ...

“And after being perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.” (Heb 5:9)

Who really believes that to “obey Him” means to just accept His free gift of grace-faith (Eph 2:8-9)?

3 valid answers:
-- those who have no NT
-- those who do not read or understand their NT
-- those who refuse to believe spiritual Truth revealed in their NT

Sorry, but the Rolfster is tired @ the moment.
.

 

[steaver]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
And the beauty is you can find all of those "persevere" and the "IF you hold fast firm until the end" statements in the Bible.

1 Tim 4 15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. 16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you."

Heb 3
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
...12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;



I didn't provide any paragraphs of "application" as we can all see. I merely "Quoted" the texts that you are complaining about.



in Christ,

Bob

Sorry Bob, everyone knows you applied the verses to the conversation of one losing salvation. Your little ploy does not work here for you.

And in this case I quoted them as being examples of texts containing some of the snippet phrases DHK used in his post (to which I responded above).

Exactly! You made an application quoting scriptures.

It is beyond dispute that those same phrases can be found in the texts above - I simply point out that they exist as actual Bible texts.

Continue your objection to the texts if you like. I have some popcorn here and will gladly observe

So now that I have shown the board you did apply scripture to a topic, and you admitted as much, you should answer my question....

Originally Posted by steaver
So according to your application here of 1Tim4:15, if I persevere those who hear me will stay saved also?

Of course you despise those pesky questions that debunk your applications of scripture. But I do it for the sake of those who may be searching for truth in doctrine so they will not get led astray.

 

[DHK]

Sadly - the mere quote of the texts above gives rise to your strong objection to them. I added no paragraphs of my "Interpretation" - -your own response to the mere quote of the text proves that your real argument is "with the text" itself.

in Christ,

Bob

That is right Bob. You let them stand, alone, without interpretation or explanation.
I will do the same thing you do. Quote a verse and let it stand alone without context and/or explanation.

Here is what the Bible teaches (Psalm 14:1)

"...There is no God."

Those are the exact words Bob. This is the way you quote Scripture and let it stand without context and explanation.

 

[DHK]

I don't care what a persons answer to the the question is, OK?

I will repeat again. You don't care when you slander a good man's name.
I direct you to this response:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2046313&postcount=139

You owe this man an apology.
I expect to see one.

 

[preacher4truth]

I will repeat again. You don't care when you slander a good man's name.
I direct you to this response:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2046313&postcount=139

You owe this man an apology.
I expect to see one.

Keep waiting and expecting me to apologize to a man who calls me a liar, something against BB rules and then uses insults against others after repudiating others for it, which is what I called him on, and for saying the only one on 'our' side is calvin, and we can read between the lines on what that means. Obviously you can't. Or is it your bias showing again?

And you have more to address than your cherry picking antics. Get to it and get over yourself.

I owe no one an apology. You? Historically you owe many an apology.

 

[preacher4truth]

The only error I made here is to converse with a liar. Prove that I believe someone/something other than Christ saves, or shut your trap.

Just for the record, and to prevent the false witness from saying I am dodging: I believe that Jesus Christ alone saves, and that salvation is found in no other.

I see you're still practicing insults and name calling, something you disdain in others, call others on, yet practice yourself. Go take a gander at Romans 2.

In addition, if you or anyone else believes salvation is lost you've added and taken away from the Gospel. And you do have many other errors which are well known.

 

[preacher4truth]

mischaracterization <sic> of a person and misrepresentation of his view is unwarranted and against the rules.

OK. Then you've broken this rule when you misrepresent the truth of perseverance of the saints, and, when you've stated in the past I and other reformed do not believe in Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus and more. You've also misrepresented many others here on multiple occasions, and have continued to do so even after they've shown your error and straw man arguments.

Here, we judge things according to the Word of God NOT P4T's interpretation of the Word of God!
There is a big difference.

That is another misrepresentation. Show the passage that I've interpreted in this thread to which you refer. Or, apologize and admit your error.

 

[DHK]

On Perseverance of the Saints, to which neither DHK, nor BobRyan, nor those of their ilk understand, I will explain the position.

I never said I didn't understand it just because I posted something you disagreed with. I deliberately misrepresented your position just as you deliberately misrepresented Thomas's. Now you accuse me of not understanding. This is you--full of false accusations.

Their argument is that we say we need to do something to remain saved. That's untrue.

That is not my argument, but for the sake of a good argument you really need to read Dave Hunt's book: "What Love is This." You might just learn something.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1928660126/?tag=baptis04-20

They argue we don't know if we are saved. That is also untrue.

I could see where they are coming from; but again I don't argue that.

When we talk about perseverance of saints it is their actual preservation by Christ in eternal salvation and by His securing His sheep -- John 10:26ff.

I know that. But persevere is not the correct word then is it? You just used the exact word I did--"preservation" which I believe. So be honest then. The saints don't persevere; they are preserved.

I didn't name the 'P' in TULIP, and I admit it is poorly worded, yet you two take off with the surface statement and run with it like you have the true meaning and then create your straw man ideologies and beat upon them. Frankly you don't have and never have had the true meaning of this position. Php. 1:6, John 10:28, Eph. 1:13ff, Hebrews 12:2 &c show it is all Christ, and these passages reflect OSAS and perseverance of saints which is really preservation.

You don't know me, and don't know my beliefs. Frankly I resent your false accusations.

That said show me one Calvinist/Reformed on here who has said we need to do something to remain saved. You can't, because it hasn't happened, so what you do instead is put words in their mouths and refuse to acknowledge that they in fact have it exactly correct. On top of that I can show you some on here who are not of our camp that do in fact say this, and use passages of what others must do to 'get to heaven'. That is a clear cut denial of Solus Christus.

I don't and I won't. So why accuse me. Your ignorance of my beliefs is astounding by what you are posting. Why do you slander me as you slander Thomas. Do you always just shoot from the hip and regret it later. I perceive you will be owing me an apology after all these false allegations.
BTW, have you ever heard of "a hypothetical" or "playing the devil's advocate"?

Another thing about perseverance that we adhere to is that we will continue in the faith until the end, because of Christ's abiding power in us, and because we are truly regenerate (2 John 1:2).

And here is where many of the Calvinists fail. (I am not sure about you.
Can you give me a clearcut testimony of when you were saved?
When did you put your faith in Christ?
The Bible commands us: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
Call upon the name of the Lord and thou shalt be saved.
There are literally hundreds of Scriptures which command us to put OUR faith in Christ. God does not give us HIS faith to put in Him. This is as ludicrous a doctrine as ever was put forth.
Eph.2:8,9 teaches that salvation is a gift of God; but nowhere in the Bible does it teach that faith is a gift given to the unregenerate or the unsaved.

Having said all that here is your quandry:
If he doesn't continue to the end he is not one of the elect, (so you say).
But if he doesn't continue to the end he may be a carnal or backslidden Christian just as 1Cor.3:1-3 teaches. You deliberately ignore that Scripture to hold on to this former position. It is a denial of truth in order to keep to a tenet of Calvinism which is unbiblical.
Your conclusion here really is a denial of eternal security when it comes right down to it. It is an excuse. "he was never saved in the first place."
I give the person the benefit of the doubt (something that 1Cor.13 commands us to do--you know that terrible chapter on love), and say it is possible that he wasn't living for the Lord; it is possible that he fell into a carnal lifestyle and had not yet repented--which has been the testimony of many saints in the past.

We also understand that those who depart, go out from among us, were never truly saved, Matthew 7:22ff and 1 John 2:19 (these were NEVER known by Christ/They were NEVER of the saints, were not ever saved) and this is true no matter what their profession was in the past.

That is true; but it is not an absolute. John was giving an example, not an absolute for all eternity. You ignore the teaching of Paul (1Cor.3:1-3).

So in a nutshell those who are TRULY regenerate will never lose salvation, and those who were not truly regenerate as described above never lose salvation because they never had it in the first place, no matter what they've professed in the past. This is why the Holy Spirit gave these passages so it would be evident they were never saved in the place.

The first part is true.
Those who truly born again will never lose their salvation.
The second part is presumptuous on the part of the Calvinist. It seems to indicate that they set themselves up as little gods deciding who will go to heaven and who will not. They look at the end result of a man's life (his works) and declare whether or not he is going to heaven.
I have news for you.
The Lord knows them that are his; not the Calvinist.

 

[DHK]

OK. Then you've broken this rule when you misrepresent the truth of perseverance of the saints, and, when you've stated in the past I and other reformed do not believe in Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus and more. You've also misrepresented many others here on multiple occasions, and have continued to do so even after they've shown your error and straw man arguments.

You are the one making false accusations that you can't back up. I don't take those positions, and whatever posts you refer to will no doubt be out of context. I know that Calvinists believe in sola scriptura and in sola Christus, as I also do. Your problem is jumping into the middle of a debate not knowing the context and assume that you are a know-it-all, and then come away with false per-conceived ideas as you have just posted.
You need to apologize for the slander you have just written about me.

That is another misrepresentation. Show the passage that I've interpreted in this thread to which you refer. Or, apologize and admit your error.

I refer to your remarks about Thomas. That is good enough.

 

[preacher4truth]

I never said I didn't understand it just because I posted something you disagreed with. I deliberately misrepresented your position just as you deliberately misrepresented Thomas's. Now you accuse me of not understanding. This is you--full of false accusations.

Deliberately misrepresented? Save your pretense and back tracking for another. It's Nonsense. Keep trying though, you may believe yourself someday. Here is what you've stated and you've done so in the past as well:

If you really wanted to get into it, the same is true of Calvinists.
Perseverance is works.
Persevering to the end is works.
The perseverance of the saints is a works salvation, now isn't it.

I believe in the "preservation" of the saints. My salvation is preserved or held safe by Christ. I don't have to worry about persevering--a works salvation.
Now who as the double speak?

There's enough proof. :wavey:

That is not my argument, but for the sake of a good argument you really need to read Dave Hunt's book: "What Love is This." You might just learn something.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1928660126/?tag=baptis04-20

I don't delve into those who employ false teachings. I'll pass.

I know that. But persevere is not the correct word then is it? You just used the exact word I did--"preservation" which I believe. So be honest then. The saints don't persevere; they are preserved.

I was already honest and explained the above to you.

You don't know me, and don't know my beliefs. Frankly I resent your false accusations.

Likewise.

I don't and I won't. So why accuse me. Your ignorance of my beliefs is astounding by what you are posting. Why do you slander me as you slander Thomas. Do you always just shoot from the hip and regret it later. I perceive you will be owing me an apology after all these false allegations.
BTW, have you ever heard of "a hypothetical" or "playing the devil's advocate"?

Keep dreaming and making false accusations. I've slandered no one and there is nothing to regret.

And here is where many of the Calvinists fail. (I am not sure about you.
Can you give me a clearcut testimony of when you were saved?
When did you put your faith in Christ?

More straw man nonsense. I certainly can do the above, but will not do so according to Matthew 7.

The Bible commands us: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
Call upon the name of the Lord and thou shalt be saved.
There are literally hundreds of Scriptures which command us to put OUR faith in Christ. God does not give us HIS faith to put in Him. This is as ludicrous a doctrine as ever was put forth.

Yes, we've been down this path in the past. Faith comes from God, and it is only by His power we believe, something you disdain and something you claim you've done on your own.

Eph.2:8,9 teaches that salvation is a gift of God; but nowhere in the Bible does it teach that faith is a gift given to the unregenerate or the unsaved.

The Bible certainly does teach faith is the gift of God.

Having said all that here is your quandry:

:laugh:

If he doesn't continue to the end he is not one of the elect, (so you say).
But if he doesn't continue to the end he may be a carnal or backslidden Christian just as 1Cor.3:1-3 teaches.

The passage you misquote has nothing to do with apostasy. And you teach others? WOW!!!

You deliberately ignore that Scripture to hold on to this former position.

I deliberately ignore your misinterpretations and out of context nonsense such as above.

It is a denial of truth in order to keep to a tenet of Calvinism which is unbiblical.

Your still building your straw man on a false premise and wresting of Scripture, but continue please....

Your conclusion here really is a denial of eternal security when it comes right down to it. It is an excuse. "he was never saved in the first place."

Then John also uses this excuse. Peter does as well when he calls these sows and dogs. I'm in good company with these two.

I give the person the benefit of the doubt (something that 1Cor.13 commands us to do--

More proof testing and wresting Scripture out of context. The passage says no such thing. And you teach, correct?

you know that terrible chapter on love),

You mean by implication that you practice this, yes?

and say it is possible that he wasn't living for the Lord; it is possible that he fell into a carnal lifestyle and had not yet repented--which has been the testimony of many saints in the past.

You're still on the wrong path here.

That is true; but it is not an absolute. John was giving an example, not an absolute for all eternity. You ignore the teaching of Paul (1Cor.3:1-3).

That passage has nothing to do with apostasy.

The first part is true.
Those who truly born again will never lose their salvation.
The second part is presumptuous on the part of the Calvinist. It seems to indicate that they set themselves up as little gods deciding who will go to heaven and who will not. They look at the end result of a man's life (his works) and declare whether or not he is going to heaven.
I have news for you.
The Lord knows them that are his; not the Calvinist.

Although you offer a straw man on Calvinists and misrepresent them, and as you consistently do, go to the extreme in it, it is Christ who looks at the end result of a mans life and who tells us those who have gone out were never of us. Those who apostatize were never saved. There are evidences of false salvation in Scripture. This is plain and clear.

 

[BobRyan]

And the beauty is you can find all of those "persevere" and the "IF you hold fast firm until the end" statements in the Bible.

1 Tim 4 15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. 16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you."

Heb 3
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
...12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
I believe in eternal security or OSAS.


Well you have free ill. I on the other hand prefer the Bible texts quoted above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
I don't interpret those verses with a gloss superficial interpretation such as you have, ignoring basic context.

Sadly - the mere quote of the texts above gives rise to your strong objection to them. I added no paragraphs of my "Interpretation" - -your own response to the mere quote of the text proves that your real argument is "with the text" itself.

That is right Bob. You let them stand, alone, without interpretation or explanation.

I find your logic illusive at that point since you seem to be claiming both -

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
I don't interpret those verses with a gloss superficial interpretation such as you have, ignoring basic context.

And also

That is right Bob. You let them stand, alone, without interpretation or explanation.

Are you trying to "have it both ways"??

I will do the same thing you do. Quote a verse and let it stand alone

Please do.

And then notice How I do not follow a post that has nothing in it but the text with "a gloss superficial interpretation such as you have, ignoring basic context" --- simply because you quote the text itself in your post - and add nothing more.

Because if I did complain at that point - it would be exposing "war against the text itself" as the issue.

without context and/or explanation.

Here is what the Bible teaches (Psalm 14:1)

"...There is no God."

To which I add no snipping.

Just...

"14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

And my own comment.

Great Text - thanks for bringing that up.

Any more?

Or was I supposed to complain when you post 6 verses in their entirety (as I just did rather than a tiny two-word snippet from just one verse as you did) ???

See? I love the comparison idea!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
If you really wanted to get into it, the same is true of Calvinists.
Perseverance is works.
Persevering to the end is works.
The perseverance of the saints is a works salvation, now isn't it.

And the beauty is you can find all of those "persevere" and the "IF you hold fast firm until the end" statements in the Bible.

1 Tim 4 15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. 16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you."

Heb 3
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
...12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Sorry Bob, everyone knows you applied the verses to the conversation of one losing salvation.

Sorry Steaver - everyone who read that post knows that I am responding to DHK's own contrast of "perseverence of the saints" vs "preservation". And simply pointing to "verses that exist" in the case of his snippet references to perseverance.

Your little ploy does not work here for you.

Thus I made no application at all - I simply quote the text and point to the fact that the references to "perseverance" exist in scripture close to what DHK paraphrased.

Exactly! You made an application quoting scriptures.

That they "exist"???

Is this what you find "questionable"?? Is this point that "they exist" where you need "more clarification"??? really???

Your "all-for-opposition" strategy seems to be going to an extreme.

So now that I have shown the board you did apply scripture to a topic,

All you "showed" is that I claimed that these verses on "perseverance" -- EXIST in the form close to what DHK referenced in his post contrasting "perseverance" to "preservation".

The point remains.

Originally Posted by steaver
So according to your application here of 1Tim4:15, if I persevere those who hear me will stay saved also?

The only point I made from that text - in the post you quoted is that "it exists".

Are you asking if I also authored the text???:type: Asking me what I intended when I authored the texts? ??

Surely you can bring yourself to simply agree to the focus point in my post - that those texts "exist" and that they reference "perseverance" in a manner similar to the way DHK paraphrased them.

It does not get any easier than that my friend.

If you guys are going to choke\balk\complain on the easy part -- what about the more challenging aspects? Objectivity is not the great evil you seem to have at first imagined it to be.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
If you really wanted to get into it, the same is true of Calvinists.
Perseverance is works.
Persevering to the end is works.
The perseverance of the saints is a works salvation, now isn't it.

And the beauty is you can find all of those "persevere" and the "IF you hold fast firm until the end" statements in the Bible.

1 Tim 4 15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. 16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you."

Heb 3
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
...12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Sorry Bob, everyone knows you applied the verses to the conversation of one losing salvation.

Sorry Steaver - what everyone knows that reads that post is that I admit these texts "exist" and that the paraphrase DHK provides for "perseverance" is close to the texts themselves.

But I am sure that outside of the post - they also know that it does not hurt my feelings at all - that those texts are actually true, and that I never whine or complain about someone simply quoting those verses in their entirety - verse by verse, no not even as I just quoted them do I mind. Its one of those places where the text simply does not bother me.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Deliberately misrepresented? Save your pretense and back tracking for another. It's Nonsense. Keep trying though, you may believe yourself someday. Here is what you've stated and you've done so in the past as well:

Again you don't believe me; you deny my testimony as to what I said. You just don't stop do you?

There's enough proof. :wavey:

It is only proof that:
a. You don't understand what I was getting at in the first half of the post.
b. A denial of what I do believe, and a denial of the confusion of Calvinistic terminology which you later admitted to. You dug a hole for yourself but don't want to admit it.

I don't delve into those who employ false teachings. I'll pass.

You mean you don't want to open your eyes to the truth--pity!

I was already honest and explained the above to you.

Sure you did. Then be man enough to admit you were wrong.

Keep dreaming and making false accusations. I've slandered no one and there is nothing to regret.

Obviously you have. You slandered Thomas by stating he believed in something he didn't, only because you interpreted his belief according to your interpretation. I have news for you: You are not infallible.
You did the same with me. It is obvious that you misrepresented my beliefs. You don't even know what they are. How can you fairly state them?

More straw man nonsense. I certainly can do the above, but will not do so according to Matthew 7.

Matthew 7 has nothing to do with this.
Perhaps you can't give a time when you put YOUR faith in Christ, because you didn't. Your brand of Calvinism doesn't allow you to do. Unless a man puts THEIR faith in Christ they cannot be saved. That was the teaching of Christ when he said: "Except you be as little children you cannot enter the kingdom of God." He was speaking of THEIR faith. The had simple implicit faith in those that protected them--their parents.

Yes, we've been down this path in the past. Faith comes from God, and it is only by His power we believe, something you disdain and something you claim you've done on your own.

Too bad you can't back up your position with Scripture. You can't because it is an unbiblical position. I have never had a Calvinist prove me wrong yet.

The Bible certainly does teach faith is the gift of God.

Again, you can't prove me wrong from Scripture, for it is an unbiblical position. And likewise I have never had a Calvinist prove me wrong yet.

The passage you misquote has nothing to do with apostasy. And you teach others? WOW!!!

I teach and believe the Bible. If you don't accept it, what has that to do with me?

I deliberately ignore your misinterpretations and out of context nonsense such as above.

What did I take out of context? Your unbiblical interpretation of the Bible? That has no context.

Your still building your straw man on a false premise and wresting of Scripture, but continue please....

Continue with your unbiblical theories. I can quote the Bible, as I did, and this is your lame answer??

Then John also uses this excuse. Peter does as well when he calls these sows and dogs. I'm in good company with these two.

As I said, John gives an example, not an absolute. But if you are not willing to accept Scripture what then?
Here is another Scripture for you to meditate on.
Peter speaks of this "carnal Christian" who is also described as "backslidden."
He calls Lot both righteous and just.
But Lot offered his virgin daughters to be abused all night long by homosexuals. That sounds like the actions of a righteous man doesn't it?
[quoteMore proof testing and wresting Scripture out of context. The passage says no such thing. And you teach, correct?

You mean by implication that you practice this, yes? [/quote]
Since I didn't quote the exact verse of 1Cor.13 you have no idea what I am talking about do you. There you go putting foot in mouth before you know what is being spoken of.

You're still on the wrong path here.

Like I said, it has been the testimony of many saints of the past. But you would deny history just to fit your ill conceived theology.

That passage has nothing to do with apostasy.

I didn't say it did; I said it has to do with carnality--carnal Christians--Christians living carnal lives. It uses those very words, and yet many of you deny it.

Although you offer a straw man on Calvinists and misrepresent them, and as you consistently do, go to the extreme in it, it is Christ who looks at the end result of a mans life and who tells us those who have gone out were never of us. Those who apostatize were never saved. There are evidences of false salvation in Scripture. This is plain and clear.

But you are the god who is arrogant enough to tell us who has (in your opinion) "apostatized" and who hasn't. Amazing!

 

[preacher4truth]

Put an end to your nonsense, backtracking, and covering up your past statements. You go to no end, and even you don't believe you.

If misrepresenting others was actually against rules you would've been long gone. Heavens sake, you even misrepresent yourself in order to cover up your own past statements. Yep. You'll go to no end. It's shameful, really.

 

[preacher4truth]

From DHK:

We believe in OSAS, which the Calvinists (apparently) do not believe.
They believe TULIP, perseverance of the saints.

The difference: Suppose a Christian lives a Godly life for 40 years and then in the last year he slips into a carnal lifestyle. The Calvinist says he was never saved in the first place. He believes there is no such thing as a "carnal Christian," and therefore is forced to deny that he was ever a Christian. This is more typical of those who believe in Lordship salvation, but it fits with all Calvinists and their doctrine of Perseverance. He has not persevered to the end. He ended up in carnality and therefore was not saved. In my thinking it has changed salvation by faith into salvation by works.

The non-cal believes in OSAS (eternal security), that once he is saved he is secure in God's hand and can never lose his salvation, even if he becomes as Lot became, backslidden in this terrible and wicked world. The Corinthian believers were carnal believers (1Cor.3:1-3). There are many examples of carnal Christians in the Bible. If they sin they will lose their reward not their salvation. The doctrine is not perseverance, but eternal security or OSAS.

How accurate is that assessment?

It's inaccurate.

More evidence you weren't deliberately misrepresenting PoS. I tried to believe you but I know your statements on this in the past also support what I said to you here and that you do in fact twist PoS into works salvation. So no, you weren't being facetious nor were you deliberately misrepresenting it. It's actually your history to do so. So let's be honest and admit to what is a well known fact on your position. You've called our salvation a salvation of works.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1702081&highlight=perseverance#post1702081

More:

Generally speaking this is what I believe.

Sounds like a contradictory position to me.

However, in some of the Calvinist positions I have heard (perhaps hyper-Calvinist--there are different shades of Calvinists I have come to find out), I have heard this. The Calvinist, in reality, has no assurance of salvation. His security rests on, as you say, perseverance. But why perseverance? Perseverance not because he has believed, but rather because he is one of the elect (the U in unconditional election). I know I have eternal life because of the promises of God like John 3:36 or 1John 5:12,13. "that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal," why? because you have believed on the name of the son of God.

How does the Calvinist know? Because he is one of the elect. How does he know he is one of the elect? He doesn't. He has no way of knowing. He has no assurance. If it is "fruit," then his salvation is based on works. If it is by belief then he must admit that salvation is by believing and not 100% of God's work of the Holy Spirit. He is caught between a rock and hard place. He either has no assurance of salvation or he must admit that salvation is dependent on "believing," which he doesn't want to do.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1677054&highlight=perseverance#post1677054

 

[DHK]

You quoted me as saying:

He either has no assurance of salvation or he must admit that salvation is dependent on "believing," which he doesn't want to do.

Earlier in this thread I asked you to give a statement of your salvation.
Have you believed or put your faith in Christ.
When did you believe in or put your faith in Christ.

It seems you cannot give such a testimony or won't, just like I said long ago in the quote you dug up from who knows where. You just proved me right.

 

[BobRyan]

You've called our salvation a salvation of works.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1702081&highlight=perseverance#post1702081

More:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1677054&highlight=perseverance#post1677054

I think it is more accurate to say that DHK was talking about the Calvinist idea that "faith" and "belief" are "works" in the "saved by works" theme. He was saying that if you take that Calvinist idea to its logical conclusion then salvation is salvation by works.

Arminians do not usually consider that a work that we do to save ourselves as if "accepting the gift" is the same work as "creating the gift" or "using the gift as a good steward". Both of the latter two concepts are accepted as "works".

But to simply "believe" is merely the response that we have to the Gospel - and then the "works" are things like choosing to be Baptized or choosing to Obey the Word of God, choosing to be a missionary, or publicly confess Christ (the 1Cor 13 list comes to mind) etc.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[preacher4truth]

I think it is more accurate to say that DHK was talking about the Calvinist idea that "faith" and "belief" are "works" in the "saved by works" theme. He was saying that if you take that Calvinist idea to its logical conclusion then salvation is salvation by works.

Well, thanks for clearing up the obvious. :wavey:

Arminians do not usually consider that a work that we do to save ourselves as if "accepting the gift" is the same work as "creating the gift" or "using the gift as a good steward". Both of the latter two concepts are accepted as "works".

But of course. Anything you all 'DO' is never considered a WORK in your (whatever) system even though YOU DID IT. :thumbs:

But to simply "believe" is merely the response that we have to the Gospel -

We see faith as not the cause as you do, we see it as evidence. Wonder what that makes your concept of 'faith'? Something you DID perhaps? Yes, that is the logical conclusion. :love2:

and then the "works" are things like choosing to be Baptized or choosing to Obey the Word of God, choosing to be a missionary, or publicly confess Christ (the 1Cor 13 list comes to mind) etc.

More misnomers on your part, due to a faulty foundation. We'd call these things sanctification due to the Holy Spirit working in us to will to do His good pleasure. In other words, from point A to point B in the biblical concept of Reformed soteriology, He gets ALL the glory. :applause:

It's interesting that EVERYTHING in your system is what YOU'VE done. Looks like in OURS it is all about what HE has done and is DOING. Soli Deo Gloria!!!