I believe they are completely answered without any separating of soul and spirit salvation.
So you are saying that the soul of a born again Christian can end up lost?? This is what M.E. preaches.
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I believe they are completely answered without any separating of soul and spirit salvation.
So you are saying that the soul of a born again Christian can end up lost?? This is what M.E. preaches.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Well there is the "Conditional statement" so many people were asking about.
Thanks for posting that. :godisgood:
in Christ,
Bob
No, I am not saying that at all. I believe that man is basically a dichotomy of immaterial and material or spirit and body. However, I believe the immateral part of man (spirit) consists of two aspects. The innermost aspect provides man with the ability to commune with the OTHER WORLD - the spirit and consists of the faculties of conscience, communion, and intuition or direct knowledge by revelation. The other aspect is the soul or INNER WORLD consciousness (feelings and intellect which share control over the volition) and then the body which provides man an OUTER WORLD consciousness.
The soul is translated "life" because your daily "life" is the EXPRESSION of the soul (emotions and intellect directing the will into words and actions). What is lost and saved daily is the EXPRESSION of the soul or YOUR WORKS consisting of words and actions (1 Cor. 3:12-14) but your "soul is saved as by fire" regardless of your LIFE EXPRESSION.
The LIFE EXPRESSION of your soul is determined whether you set your AFFECTIONS and MIND on things above or on things beneath because as a man thinketh in his heart SO IS HE or his life being expressed and directed by either heavenly and hellish thinking, saying and acting.
For example, Jesus said that your LIFE EXPRESSIONS come from the heart and that your words reveal your heart. Christians will be judged "according to their works (life expressions) for reward but their soul which produces those life expressions shall be "saved."
Hence, the soul is the inner CAUSE while the "life" is the CONSEQUENCE of the activities of the soul. For example, you SPEAK what you first think or feel and you DO what you think and/or feel. Both your words and actions express YOUR VISIBLE LIFE to all around you. That VISIBLE LIFE either honors or dishonors God. Only as our soul (heart, mind, will) comes under the control of the Holy Spirit do we then "walk" or LIVE A LIFE that honors God but if we are following the flesh then the product IN THAT TIME the flesh is being expressed in our VISIBLE LIFE is lost for ever while the product being expressed under the direction of the Spirit is REDEEMED forever (Eph. 5:16).
That portion of your daily VISIBLE LIFE under the direction of the flesh is not only lost time and effort for eternity but you are experiencing DEATH (separation) from EXPERIENTIAL fellowship and blessings of God and losing rewards as long as you walk after the flesh. Spiritual maturity is guaged by the characteristic difference that a life is either guided by the Spirit or the flesh. Those who are spiritual babes walk more after the flesh than the Spirit characteristically. Those who are young men manifest lives more after the Spirit. Those who are spiritual fathers characteristically walk more after the Spirit experientially. As we grow in the EXPERIENTIAL knowledge of Christ our DAILY LIFE expresses that growth.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 summarizes this teaching. The foundation which no man can lay is the Person and works of Christ that secure entrance into heaven. The two contrasting substances (gold, silver and precious stones VERSUS wood, hay and stumble) represent the TYPE OF WORKS that characterize our LIFE EXPRESSIONS during the time between new birth and judgment day. Such LIFE EXPRESSIONS are the product of the 'soul" which is "saved so as by fire" regardless if all our works are burned (life expressions under the leadership of the flesh). What is not burned (the life expressions of the soul under the leadership of the Spirit) receives reward but entrance into heaven and eternal life is a gift.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear,
but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
____________________________________________________
There are no conditions here.
"In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die," the Lord said to Adam. Adam ate. He died. And yet we find this dead man called Adam still taking to God. How can a dead man (Adam) talk to a living God??
He had died spiritually. He would eventually die physically. But for now he was separated from God spiritually which is also death. Death is separation. Adam was now separated from God--could have no fellowship with him because of sin. He needed to be reconciled.
If you live according to the flesh you shall die--spiritually.
If by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh you will live--(A Spirit-filled life).
But read the next verse to find the context:
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
Are you led by the Spirit of God?
Are you a child of God? (How do you know)
A child of God is led by the Spirit of God, and knows it. He knows (vs.16) for the Spirit himself bears witness with his spirit that he is a child of God.
Does God's Spirit bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God?
These, then, are not conditions. They are characteristics of those who walk according to the Spirit.
evangelist-7
New Member
Unfortunately, you have NOT heard ANY testimonies of pastors, etc.
... concerning BACs who have chucked it all and run from the faith.
But, they might possibly return and end up being saved ... even on their death-beds!
Baptists do NOT seem to be willing to see and admit that ... FREE WILL IS KING!
God will NOT override this gift, which was given to man ... for one or more reasons!
ANOTHER REPETITION ...
All of God's many dozens of warnings and threats were given
to those whom He elected before the foundation of the world.
It was at this time that ... He saw that THEY heeded them ... unto salvation!
That is why these were elected.
He saw that everyone else (including some BACs) were NOT willing to heed them!
.
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Well idk Bib, sounds very complicated, confusing and unnecessary to me. When it comes to salvation, I believe that if a fifth grader cannot understand it, then it is not the simple gospel of Jesus Christ. Can you imagine giving this lesson you posted here to a fifth grader?? You would probably get a lot of these stares
God speed though if it works for you and your students. Way to complex for me to bother with. :love2:
Well....
Vincent's Word Studies, by Marvin R. Vincent
Romans
Ye shall die (μέλλετε ἀποθνήσκειν)
The expression is stronger than the simple future of the verb. It indicates a necessary consequence. So Rev., ye must.
Mortify (θανατοῦτε)
Put to death.
Deeds (πράξεις)
Habitual practices. See on Rom 7:15; see on Joh 3:21.
www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cmt/vws/rom008.htm
the Greek text carries the thought that IF we are really christians, than we have already put to death deeds of the flesh, that we have reckoned ourselves dead to ourselves, and made alive in Christ!
the Apsotle hear is restating what John stated, that both would agree that a real believer in jesus has been "killed off" and that he has a new nature in jesus, and that we must make sure to keep those desires of our flesh under wraps, and must walk in His grace and the Spirit!
Its like DHK stated, that we will abind in chrsit and walk in the Spirit and put down the deeds of the flesh, as that is what real christians do!
We will do all those things , as we are now with a new nature and indwelt by Holy Spirit, so paul said since you are now saved, you will act like this!
He is writting to say that real christians will do all things in Romans 8 now, BECAUSE we are already saved!
Anf both paul/John agree that a real saved person NOT in habitual/conditional sinning!
So Paul does NOT agree with you at all here!
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evangelist-7
New Member
That is what those elected before the foundation of the world will do!
Those in Romans 8:28-30 ... This NOT all BACs.
Incorrect because ...
Paul kept entreating his churches to act like this (because they were fully capable of doing this)!
Bonus coverage:
He also kept entreating his churches to STOP sinning!
And he littered his epistles with a whole lot of "IF"s!
If they "will act like this", why all the IFs?
.
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Your logic is very flawed.
I have children. They will always be my "children" no matter how old they get. They have my genes; nothing can change that.
I must teach them to tell the truth. If they lie does that mean they are no longer my children and have to learn to tell the truth all over again? Do I have to continually teach them to tell the truth that they may continue to be my children? No matter what they do they remain my children. They were born into my family.
I was born into God's family and cannot be "unborn." I may receive many admonitions, but I am still God's child and always will be. God does repeat himself, and for good reason. Repetition is the mother of learning. Perhaps it will sink in some time. Thus the important doctrine of OSAS taught over and over and over again throughout all the Scriptures.
So when you die, will the blood of Jesus atoned and be a covering for ALL your sins ever done, or JUST for ones that you confessed and repended of to God then?
That sounds JUST like RCC saying there are veniel/Mortal sins, and mortal ones keep yuo from heaven!
evangelist-7
New Member
This is all very exciting! ... Thanks be to thee for sharing all of this!
But, what about the Scripture verses written to the churches
which warn about LOSING ETERNAL LIFE?
Wanna see 'em again?
P.S. The Hint of the Day is ... One cannot lose eternal life, if they don't have it to lose.
.
there are NO verses in the NT that state a true child of God can lose their salvation in Christ, and many warnings against living below what should be, but that is to encourage us to become 'all that God meant for us to be", NOT warning can lose it!
ANY examples in nT of a saint who God sais actually lost it?
Well idk Bib, sounds very complicated, confusing and unnecessary to me. When it comes to salvation, I believe that if a fifth grader cannot understand it, then it is not the simple gospel of Jesus Christ. Can you imagine giving this lesson you posted here to a fifth grader?? You would probably get a lot of these stares
God speed though if it works for you and your students. Way to complex for me to bother with. :love2:
Let's see what is so hard and difficult to understand???
1. Is it too difficult to grasp that your body was not born again? Is that too difficult to see it was not your body that was born again but it is your "spirit" (Jn. 3:6)? Is John 3:6 too difficult for you to understand?
2. Is it too difficult for you to understand that the new birth is the past tense "saved" aspect of salvation?
3. Is it too difficult for you to understand that the glorification of your body is the removal of the principle of corruption and indwelling law of sin?
4. Is it too difficult for you to understand that the removal of the principle of corruption due to indwelling sin is the future tense aspect of salvation "shall be saved" = glorification????
5. So is past tense versus future tense too difficult for you to grasp?
6. Now let's move on to the only other possible aspect of salvation other than past and future tense! What would that be? Present tense? Yes. Does the tenses confuse you?
7. Now, if it is your "spirit" that has been past tense saved born again and it is your body that shall be saved glorified does not that leave only present progressive sanctification of something? other than your spirit or body being presently saved???
8. Now, let's look at your "soul." Is it too difficult to see that scriptures clearly distinguish between your "soul" and your spirit and body? Look at 1 Thessalonians 5:23. Look at Hebrews 4:12! If the word of God can distinguish between things in the matieral aspect of your nature as in bone versus marrow, thus not being the same, then its distinction between your spirit versus your soul in your immaterial nature is equally as valid is it not or is that too confusing for you?
9. Let us take a closer look at the soul. Is it confusing that the same term is translated both "soul" and "life"? Is it too confusing to see that your "life" is simply the consequential expression of the inward activity of your mind, emotions and will? For example, is it too hard to grasp that all words and actions which give a visible representsation of this inward activity are but its expressions or works? For example are your words and actions visible evidence of your inward thoughts and feelings?
10. Is it too difficult to grasp tphat if you set your mind and affections on things above, on God's Word then your words and actions resulting from that will visibly reflect that kind of thinking and feeling = good woks? Is that too hard to grasp (James 3:14-16)???
11. Is it too difficult to grasp that if you set your mind and affections on things beneath then your words and actions will reflect that in evil works (James 3:17-18)???????
12. Is it too difficult to grasp that the TIME spent thinking, feeling, expressed in saying and doing evil (bad works), is time WASTED for the glory of God and thus LOST for His cause and invalid for rewards and practically affect your fellowship with God during that time??????
13. Is it too difficult to grasp that the TIME spent thinking, feeling, expressed in saying and doing the will of God (good works) is time made to count for God's glory and SAVED in the form of rewards for good works??????
14. It is too difficult to distinguish between the faculties of the soul (thinking, feeling, willing) or YOUR INWARD CONSCIOUS SELF and their visible expressed consequences in words and actions perfomed by your body and thus visible expressed as YOUR OUTWARD LIFE seen by men and God????? Is it too difficult to see that the soul is saved but the expressions manifested and carried out in TIME and SPACE by words and actions can be LOST or SAVED (1 Cor. 3:11-15)??????
These things are the abc's of understanding the basics of progressive sanctification and your extent of spiritual growth will be dependent upon learning them better and better.
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The confusing part is when one correlates "good works" with the "saving of the soul". A soul is YOU and I, and it is saved past, present and future. has nothing to do with good works. The SOUL that sins shall die! Not the "GOOD WORKS" shall die.
Your very good at taking Scripture out of context. Yes, I don't answer to Scripture I can't see. I think your main defense is found in Hezekiah 3:1-4. It is very clear there isn't it? Quote that passage and I will concede.
preacher4truth
Active Member
The one who says don't use condescension and insults goes right to using them himself.
Yes, we know many don't believe Christ alone saves. I see you're part of that group, not to mention your many other errors.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
unless you include the "forgiveness revoked" teaching of Christ in Matt 18.
Until you include the "Fallen from grace - severed from Christ" teaching of Paul in Gal 5:4.
Until you include the "Every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit" is first pruned and then if it does not bear fruit it is removed.
in Christ,
Bob
In his defense your mischaracterization of a person and misrepresentation of his view is unwarranted and against the rules. Because a person doesn't hold the same view you hold does not mean he doesn't believe that "Christ alone saves."
Why don't you ask him that question yourself.
If he says he believes that Christ alone saves then you owe him a humble and contrite apology.
Here, we judge things according to the Word of God NOT P4T's interpretation of the Word of God!
There is a big difference.
I never said that the "soul" is good works or is anything but your conscious self (intellect, emotions, will). However, the soul is active and is the source of good or bad thoughts, words and actions and those thoughts, words and actions are your works. The TIME spent in producing such works is either being wasted and lost (bad works due to bad thoughts, words and actions) or is being redeemed (good works due to good thoughts, words and actions) and saved in the form of rewards.
But then you are saying the soul is saved by good works, correct??? This is confusing to the Christian who believes that he or she is not saved by good works, for he or she is a SOUL.