just How Do the DoG Provide "sinner an excuse?"

[DHK]

No!

the "All' has to be qualified and defined in this contex!

Whom are the 'All" that God commands to come to Christ and be saved?

They are the elect of God!

God said: "all men everywhere"
Who are you to "qualify" or change God's Word!?
Only God can do that, and He didn't.
You want to change God's Word here to make it fit into your shoe-box system of theology, denying much of what the Bible says. It doesn't work! Stick to what the Bible says, and not what you think it says.

You are doing no better than the RCC who reads into the Philippian Jailer's household and claims that there must be infants in the "household" and thus justifies infant baptism. It isn't there.

 

[JesusFan]

God said: "all men everywhere"
Who are you to "qualify" or change God's Word!?
Only God can do that, and He didn't.
You want to change God's Word here to make it fit into your shoe-box system of theology, denying much of what the Bible says. It doesn't work! Stick to what the Bible says, and not what you think it says.

You are doing no better than the RCC who reads into the Philippian Jailer's household and claims that there must be infants in the "household" and thus justifies infant baptism. It isn't there.

IF we take your position, than we are forced to conclude one of two things concerning this isuue!

Since God NOWS not all will accept Jesus, so is it that man Will can overdo that of God and thus cause them NOT to be saved, even though God desire and Will is that ALL shall...

OR

That the death of Jesus did NOT cause a certain/real salvation, but only "possibility of" such for all man...

Which one is it?

 

[DHK]

IF we take your position, than we are forced to conclude one of two things concerning this isuue!

Since God NOWS not all will accept Jesus, so is it that man Will can overdo that of God and thus cause them NOT to be saved, even though God desire and Will is that ALL shall...

1. God does "know" all who will accept Jesus. He is omniscient.
2. Man can never overdo the omniscience of God.
3. God's desire is that all men be saved.

[God] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
--His will is clearly stated in these two passages. His will is that all men be saved. That all men will not be saved is a result of their sinful nature and the hardness of their own heart against God. That is not God's fault.

Neither does it negate the command given in Acts 17:30 that he "commands all men everywhere to repent." His command there stands just as sure as the commands in the Ten Commandments. He commands all men everywhere, "Thou shalt not commit murder." It is written in their hearts. He commands all men everywhere to repent.

OR

That the death of Jesus did NOT cause a certain/real salvation, but only "possibility of" such for all man...

Which one is it?

The death, burial and resurrection of Christ was sufficient to pay the penalty for all the sins of all mankind. Therefore all men everywhere are commanded to repent. Only those who choose to repent will that sacrifice be efficacious. Most men will not take advantage of the great gift that is freely offered to them, and that is unfortunate.

 

[JesusFan]

[

QUOTE=DHK;1734145]1. God does "know" all who will accept Jesus. He is omniscient.
2. Man can never overdo the omniscience of God.
3. God's desire is that all men be saved.

God cannot desire in the final sense ALL men to be saved, ann he though?
IF jesus paid for the sins of all, died on behalf of all, as you state...

Why NOT UNiversalism?
WHY would God judge some as more wicked ?
Why isn't it Gods fault that some lost, as he desires all to be saved, provided the Cross, sent grace, yet some lost?





[God] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

--His will is clearly stated in these two passages. His will is that all men be saved. That all men will not be saved is a result of their sinful nature and the hardness of their own heart against God. That is not God's fault.

that is the way ALL "natural men" are though!
WHY are ANY saved than?




Neither does it negate the command given in Acts 17:30 that he "commands all men everywhere to repent." His command there stands just as sure as the commands in the Ten Commandments. He commands all men everywhere, "Thou shalt not commit murder." It is written in their hearts. He commands all men everywhere to repent.

The death, burial and resurrection of Christ was sufficient to pay the penalty for all the sins of all mankind. Therefore all men everywhere are commanded to repent. Only those who choose to repent will that sacrifice be efficacious. Most men will not take advantage of the great gift that is freely offered to them, and that is unfortunate.

[/QUOTE]

God is the one who grants us repentance though unto eternal life...
Is either that He grants this JUST to some, or is it that mans will can resist and stay lost, even though God desires to be saved?

 

[DHK]

[
God cannot desire in the final sense ALL men to be saved, ann he though?

Why can't he? That is his stated desire.

IF jesus paid for the sins of all, died on behalf of all, as you state...

Why NOT UNiversalism?

That would be a slap in the face of Jesus for all who reject him--to give them eternal life. Eternal life is a free gift--to those who will receive it.

WHY would God judge some as more wicked ?

Who says he does? We are all wicked. Whosoever will may come. It is your decision whether to Christ or not.

Why isn't it Gods fault that some lost, as he desires all to be saved, provided the Cross, sent grace, yet some lost?

God poured out His love on the cross. And yet there are those that refuse such wonderful grace. God has given them a will to choose to receive or reject. He doesn't force anyone. Those that reject Christ will remain lost forever.

that is the way ALL "natural men" are though!
WHY are ANY saved than?

All men are born into this world sinners. All men everywhere are commanded to repent. God has given the choice to man whether to reject him or receive him. The reason that man is lost is because he rejects the One who died for him. That is not the case will ALL men. Many receive him.

God is the one who grants us repentance though unto eternal life...
Is either that He grants this JUST to some, or is it that mans will can resist and stay lost, even though God desires to be saved?

God grants salvation on the basis of repentance and faith. Salvation is the gift of God. Eternal life is the gift of God. Faith is not. Repentance is simply the other side of faith. The two go together. It is salvation that is granted on the basis of repentance and faith. God does not repent for you. Have you ever seen God repenting on the behalf of man? No. It is God that commands all men everywhere to repent. Scripture does not contradict itself. God commands individuals to repent. He does not repent for them as the Calvinists assert. You pit Scripture against Scripture all the while taking some out of context. The command to repent is still there. It implies the ability for all men to repent without the interference of God, for it is God that commands man to repent.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

. He does not repent for them as the Calvinists assert. /QUOTE]

Where did you get that silly idea DHK that Calvinists assert God "repents" for human beings?

Try reading the book "Doctrines of Grace" by James Montgomery Boice. I think you will find it most enlightening. 226 pages....you can read it in a day or so.

 

[DHK]

. He does not repent for them as the Calvinists assert. /QUOTE]

Where did you get that silly idea DHK that Calvinists assert God "repents" for human beings?

Try reading the book "Doctrines of Grace" by James Montgomery Boice. I think you will find it most enlightening. 226 pages....you can read it in a day or so.

I don't have time to read your book. But I will get the answer from you.
Does God give faith (or repentance) to an unregenerated person, or does that person have faith inherent in him that of his own free will he has the ability to believe and be saved?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't have time to read your book. But I will get the answer from you.

Here is an excerpt then from page 133.....Quoting Charles Spurgeon, "You are a sinner, and Jesus died for your sins. If you would be saved, you must repent of your sin and believe the gospel."

 

[DHK]

Here is an excerpt then from page 133.....Quoting Charles Spurgeon, "You are a sinner, and Jesus died for your sins. If you would be saved, you must repent of your sin and believe the gospel."

Every non-cal I know of believes this. It is not a doctrine specific to Calvinism.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Every non-cal I know of believes this. It is not a doctrine specific to Calvinism.

I never said they do not. Go back to you claim that Calvinists dont believe it. Wrong!:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

I never said they do not. Go back to you claim that Calvinists dont believe it. Wrong!:thumbs:

A little mis-leading don't you think. Yes, you believe the statement, but not without "interference" first. The Calvinists that I have spoken to believe that a person must be regenerated (given faith by God) in order to be saved. That is not what the Bible teaches. God does not give faith to an unregenerated person.

If the above is true, then what I previously said is false in the eyes of a Calvinist. An unregenerate person (the Calvinist says) cannot repent, though God commands all men everywhere to repent.

 

[JesusFan]

I don't have time to read your book. But I will get the answer from you.
Does God give faith (or repentance) to an unregenerated person, or does that person have faith inherent in him that of his own free will he has the ability to believe and be saved?

Just curious, have you actually read ANY of the Systematic Theologies of either calvin, Boice, Erickson, or Grudem ?

IF you can find the timne, they all do a great job explaining WHY God chose to save/redeem man by act of His divine Will...

per the Bible...

God grants repentance unto man leading to eternal Life
God provides ALL in the salvation process to man, including faith, as That is NOT inherit within sinners!

One CAN say as Skandlion that the Gospel supernatural able to produce saving faith in us, or that god grants faith to His elect, either way, NOT inherit in us!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Just curious, have you actually read ANY of the Systematic Theologies of either calvin, Boice, Erickson, or Grudem ?

IF you can find the timne, they all do a great job explaining WHY God chose to save/redeem man by act of His divine Will...

per the Bible...

God grants repentance unto man leading to eternal Life
God provides ALL in the salvation process to man, including faith, as That is NOT inherit within sinners!

One CAN say as Skandlion that the Gospel supernatural able to produce saving faith in us, or that god grants faith to His elect, either way, NOT inherit in us!

& here is a new one, "Historic Theology by Greg Allison" ....Amazon $29.69

 

[DHK]

Just curious, have you actually read ANY of the Systematic Theologies of either calvin, Boice, Erickson, or Grudem ?

Yes, I have read Calvin (as a reference), when needed.
Grudem is simply a hodge podge of other systematic theologies. It is not worth the money spent. I have much better systematic theologies than his.

IF you can find the timne, they all do a great job explaining WHY God chose to save/redeem man by act of His divine Will...

I don't need the philosophies of others. I know what the Bible teaches. If you are confused on what the Bible teaches, I suggest you get into the Word and study it.

God grants repentance unto man leading to eternal Life
God provides ALL in the salvation process to man, including faith, as That is NOT inherit within sinners!

You have not provided one verse that indicates that God gives faith to the unregenerate. Not one, in all these months that we have discussing this topic in more than five different threads. You cannot assert a statement without evidence. Your opinion is worth nothing.
As far as repentance is concerned, the Bible commands all men everywhere to repent. God does not repent on their behalf. God grants salvation on the basis of repentance. He doesn't give repentance. You need to read the Scripture carefully to understand what the Bible is teaching. God doesn't contradict himself.

One CAN say as Skandlion that the Gospel supernatural able to produce saving faith in us, or that god grants faith to His elect, either way, NOT inherit in us!

Jesus said: "unless you have faith as a little child."
Was he lying?
Faith is inherent in a person. Children have faith in their parents. Christ was talking about the simplicity of faith. We must come to Christ with child-like faith and believe the simple message of the Gospel in order to be saved. God does not give spiritual gifts or the fruit of the Spirit to unregenerate people. Where on earth do you get these unscriptural ideas??

 

[InTheLight]

God does not give spiritual gifts or the fruit of the Spirit to unregenerate people. Where on earth do you get these unscriptural ideas??

Just curious, have you actually read ANY of the Systematic Theologies of either calvin, Boice, Erickson, or Grudem ?

Asked and answered.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, I have read Calvin (as a reference), when needed.

Good, there just might be hope for you yet to get this right!

Grudem is simply a hodge podge of other systematic theologies. It is not worth the money spent. I have much better systematic theologies than his.
I don't need the philosophies of others. I know what the Bible teaches. If you are confused on what the Bible teaches, I suggest you get into the Word and study it.

Y

strange, as dr Grudem theology one of the MOST respected ones written in this generation!

Are you saying that you cannot learn from those other authors, as they were given by God to His Church and gifted as teachers/theologians?

or is JUST the Bible /HS and me alone?

ou have not provided one verse that indicates that God gives faith to the unregenerate. Not one, in all these months that we have discussing this topic in more than five different threads. You cannot assert a statement without evidence. Your opinion is worth nothing.

My fellow cals and I have given you PLENTY of scriptures to "back up" our sotierology views, but you just refuse to hear us, and stick to your "own opinion"

Just curious why is your opinion worth more than mine?

As far as repentance is concerned, the Bible commands all men everywhere to repent. God does not repent on their behalf. God grants salvation on the basis of repentance. He doesn't give repentance. You need to read the Scripture carefully to understand what the Bible is teaching. God doesn't contradict himself.

God grants us repentence/faith/regeneration etc as they are ALL part of the salvation process, and ALL are gifts from God towards us!

Jesus said: "unless you have faith as a little child."
Was he lying?

Jesus was using them as His "object lessons", to show us that one has to be humble and trusting God

Did NOT address here the issue of faith being inherent or a Gift from God!

Faith is inherent in a person. Children have faith in their parents. Christ was talking about the simplicity of faith. We must come to Christ with child-like faith and believe the simple message of the Gospel in order to be saved. God does not give spiritual gifts or the fruit of the Spirit to unregenerate people. Where on earth do you get these unscriptural ideas??

NO verse in the Bible supports concept of inherent faith, and we have already given you several that support from the Bibles our views!

 

[DHK]

NO verse in the Bible supports concept of inherent faith, and we have already given you several that support from the Bibles our views!

Could you please quote me one. I haven't seen any.
Yet there are plenty that prove just the opposite. Christ doesn't command one to do those things that are impossible for him to do:

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30)
--He doesn't give the unsaved man faith to repent.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)
--He commands the unsaved either to believe or not to believe. He doesn't give them the faith to do so. It is up to him to make the choice.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)
--The choice to believe is up to the individual. God doesn't force anyone. God doesn't give faith to the unsaved/unregenerate.

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:31)
--Where is it written that God gave faith to Philippian jailer that he could believe. That is not what it says.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. God doesn't it give it to a person. It is an ability that every person has. I trust that from birth you have the ability to hear. And when you come to an age of understanding you have the ability to understand--understand the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation, not some mystical esoteric inexplicable Calvinistic influence that you can't define.

 

[Winman]

NO verse in the Bible supports concept of inherent faith, and we have already given you several that support from the Bibles our views!

You need to get out of that Reformed library and read the Bible. There are literally dozens of verses where the scriptures show man has his own faith. See Mat 9:22, 29, Mat 15:28, Mark 5:34, Luk 8:25 for starters, there are many more.

In Mark 6:6 Jesus marvelled at his countrymen's unbelief, in Luk 7:9 he marvelled at the centurion's great faith. Neither of these verses make sense if God gives people faith.

You would rather believe a man-made doctrine than scripture.

You never show scripture to support your view, while non-Cals have shown you dozens of verses that refute your view over the months.

 

[InTheLight]

You need to get out of that Reformed library and read the Bible. There are literally dozens of verses where the scriptures show man has his own faith. See Mat 9:22, 29, Mat 15:28, Mark 5:34, Luk 8:25 for starters, there are many more.

In Mark 6:6 Jesus marvelled at his countrymen's unbelief, in Luk 7:9 he marvelled at the centurion's great faith. Neither of these verses make sense if God gives people faith.

This verse deserves extra scrutiny.

Luke 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, He marveled at him, and turned around and said to the crowd that followed Him, “I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!”

If God gives us faith why did Jesus marvel at the faith that WAS FOUND in the Centurion?

 

[Winman]

This verse deserves extra scrutiny.

Luke 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, He marveled at him, and turned around and said to the crowd that followed Him, “I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!”

If God gives us faith why did Jesus marvel at the faith that WAS FOUND in the Centurion?

Yes, it does not make sense that Jesus would marvel at his fellow countrymen's unbelief if faith is a gift. Would Jesus not know these person's were not given faith? The verse implies that he expected them to have faith, many miracles had been performed before their eyes.

Likewise, it does not make sense that he marvelled at the centurion's great faith if faith is a gift. Did he not know or forget the centurion was given great faith?

So, these verses, plus the many verses where Jesus said "your faith" or "thy faith" show faith belongs to the person expressing it.

That said, no person could believe without God's grace. If we did not have God's word that reveals Jesus to us, no man could possibly believe in Jesus (Rom 10:14, 17). So, if we have faith, the credit goes to God who enabled us to believe.