just How Do the DoG Provide "sinner an excuse?"

[jbh28]

False. The scriptures clearly show that a man first hears the gospel, then believes it, and then after believeing receives the Spirit (Gal 3:2, Eph 1:13)

1 Cor 2:12 states these persons had already received the Spirit, therefore they had already heard the gospel and believed it. 1 Cor 2:12 also says they had received the Spirit in order that they might know "the things of God" that are freely given us.

Therefore, those "things of the Spirit" in verse 14 cannot be the gospel, because they already had the Spirit as shown in verse 12.

Of course the ones in verse 12 had received it. It's a contrast. That's the point.

 

[Iconoclast]

God would never command all men to repent if only a regenerated man could repent. That is why the Acts 17:30 defeats Calvinism at every step. You have to change the Bible in order squeeze the truth of Acts 17:30 into the Calvinistic narrow "thought-box." God commands all men everywhere to repent. It does not say God commands only the regenerate to repent! Icon! Why are you trying to change what the Bible says??


God commands sheep to repent.--Agreed.
God commands the "goats" (that is, the unsaved)
God commands all men everywhere to be saved. That statement needs no revision. You can't insert regenerated into that statement, not sheep into that statement. It is "all men everywhere"--Jew and Gentile: all the unsaved, everywhere.

You are deliberately adding to the Scriptures and changing what the Bible says, all to make it fit into your "Calvinistic thought-box."
1. Acts 17:30 says nothing about being regenerated. It says that all men everywhere must repent, not be regenerated. Don't add to the Word things that are not there.
2. In the above paragraph you have simply put forth a typical Calvinistic syllogism which is no where found in Acts 17:30. In fact the teaching of Acts 17:30 clearly contradicts your thoughts given in the above paragraph. You have a choice set before you. You can either believe the "thought box" of Calvinism or the truths set forth in the Bible as summarized in Acts 17:30. These are the truths that the Bible teaches; that the Apostles taught; that the ECF taught.[/QUOTE]

DHK
Looks like this is another of your errors that you cannot come to grips with.
You cannot even read my post correctly.....you must twist it...that is sad.

This is the fourth time you have done this....that is habitual with you. If you cannot understand my original post,or this one....how can i answer?
Your lack of understanding and overwork of Acts 17;30 is pathetic;

the truths set forth in the Bible as summarized in Acts 17:30.

It is dealing with one thing....God has commanded all men everywhere to repent.

you say falsely;

God would never command all men to repent if only a regenerated man could repent.

Who says???....You! All men are responsible to repent..period I answered this before...you make as if I did not.

You have to change the Bible in order squeeze the truth of Acts 17:30 into the Calvinistic narrow "thought-box."

I changed nothing....I will remind you lying and bearing false witness is a sin!

God commands all men everywhere to repent. It does not say God commands only the regenerate to repent! Icon! Why are you trying to change what the Bible says??

This lying is juvenile on your part! what is wrong with you?
I posted this earlier very clearly;

Sheep are included in the all men everywhere!!! I never said it did not include them. Why are you trying to make it as if i denied this???

and again here;

[DHk...at one point the sheep were living as children of wrath,until God quickens or regenerates them....so the command is for all...the unsaved that you list...plus the lost sheep the lost sheep then are found by Jesus through the preaching of the word,and they are drawn savingingly to Jesus. So your statement that excludes the sheep from being part of all men is a false statement and you are confusing yourself /QUOTE]

how many times do i have to post it before you deny that I posted several times....calvinists believe and use this verse all the time?

 

[Winman]

Of course the ones in verse 12 had received it. It's a contrast. That's the point.

No, the point is that Gal 3:2 and Eph 1:13 prove that a natural man can hear the gospel and believe it, and when they do, they AFTERWARD receive the Spirit. That is why Paul asked, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE ye believed?"
(Acts 19:2)

So, these "things of God" or "things of the Spirit" in 1 Cor 2 that cannot be received by the natural man cannot be the gospel.

 

[Winman]

Furthermore, Paul's question to disciples of John the Baptist in Act 19:2 proves natural man can believe. They had heard the preaching of John and believed it. But they had not received the Holy Ghost, they did not even know of the Holy Ghost. Yet they had BELIEVED. So, natural men have the ability to believe.

It was when Paul preached Jesus to them and they again believed that they received the Spirit.

There are numerous examples in the scriptures that prove faith precedes regeneration. There are exactly ZERO verses that say a man must be first regenerated to have the ability to believe. You cannot show even one verse to support this unscriptural doctrine of Calvinism.

 

[Greektim]

No, the point is that Gal 3:2 and Eph 1:13 prove that a natural man can hear the gospel and believe it, and when they do, they AFTERWARD receive the Spirit. That is why Paul asked, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE ye believed?"
(Acts 19:2)

So, these "things of God" or "things of the Spirit" in 1 Cor 2 that cannot be received by the natural man cannot be the gospel.

I don't see how Eph. 1:13 proves your point. The verse does not put chronological order on things. Rather it emphasizes logical order through cause/effect. Just wondering about your thoughts.

 

[Van]

You said that they were regenerate/born again, but did not enter heaven. Where did they go?

Did I say this? No!! So again the false teacher Jbh28 has put his false words in my mouth.

Pay no attention to this false teacher who has no regard for the truth. And do not believe for a minute it was an innocent mistake,
for another tool in their tool kit of deception is to pretend to need the obvious explained. Twaddle.

 

[Van]

The defense of false doctrine requires, strawman arguments, misrepresentation, name calling, and anything else to derail the discussion. Rather than discuss what the Bible says, they want to discuss what this theologian or that person said. Time and again, they derail threads.

The topic of this thread is: If a person can only choose death, how can they be punished for doing the only things God has given them the ability to do? On the other hand, if as the Bible says, God sets before us the choice of life or death, then we can be punished for not choosing life.

But instead of this discussion, we have 17 pages of name calling, evasion, misrepresentation and the like. And the beat goes on.

 

[JesusFan]

[

QUOTE=Van;1733214]The defense of false doctrine requires, strawman arguments, misrepresentation, name calling, and anything else to derail the discussion. Rather than discuss what the Bible says, they want to discuss what this theologian or that person said. Time and again, they derail threads.

You are describing Non cals and their sotierology model in pretty harsh terms here, aren't you?

The topic of this thread is: If a person can only choose death, how can they be punished for doing the only things God has given them the ability to do? On the other hand, if as the Bible says, God sets before us the choice of life or death, then we can be punished for not choosing life.

God did NOT give them this inability, rather came as a direct result of the fall of Adam...

God still honors our "free will", its just by our very natures we cannot accept jesus and be saved, as NONE would want to do that, IF left by God to ourselves!



But instead of this discussion, we have 17 pages of name calling, evasion, misrepresentation and the like. And the beat goes on.[/QUOTE]

 

[psalms109:31]

His sheep

I am thinking outside of the box myself. I believe there is His sheep and not His sheep. His sheep are being lead by the master to life eternal, but not His sheep are being lead by goats to destruction.

I am sorry i think this way, but if there are those who are His sheep than there has to be one's who are not His sheep right? Who are they? Do i have to believe that those who are not His sheep is goats?

Men use to use goats to lead sheep to slaughter in some country they still might.

 

[jbh28]

You said that they were regenerate/born again, but did not enter heaven. Where did they go?

Did I say this? No!! So again the false teacher Jbh28 has put his false words in my mouth.

Could you just answer the question instead of thinking I'm trying to put "false words" in your mouth? I'm trying to figure out how you are using the story. Again, I'm not saying you are saying anything, I'm asking a question. So you say "no" good, please explain. Thanks,

Pay no attention to this false teacher who has no regard for the truth. And do not believe for a minute it was an innocent mistake,
for another tool in their tool kit of deception is to pretend to need the obvious explained. Twaddle.

no reason to have this type of post. Person attacks are not allowed. Just answer the question.

 

[jbh28]

The defense of false doctrine requires, strawman arguments, misrepresentation, name calling, and anything else to derail the discussion. Rather than discuss what the Bible says, they want to discuss what this theologian or that person said. Time and again, they derail threads.

The topic of this thread is: If a person can only choose death, how can they be punished for doing the only things God has given them the ability to do? On the other hand, if as the Bible says, God sets before us the choice of life or death, then we can be punished for not choosing life.

But instead of this discussion, we have 17 pages of name calling, evasion, misrepresentation and the like. And the beat goes on.

name calling...like calling me a false teacher?
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth nor misrepresent you. I have no reason to do that to someone else.

 

[JesusFan]

name calling...like calling me a false teacher?
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth nor misrepresent you. I have no reason to do that to someone else.

Guess Non cals get upset when you do 'false teaching" by using the Bible to answer them!

 

[jbh28]

Guess Non cals get upset when you do 'false teaching" by using the Bible to answer them!

I'm not sure what I've said, but he seems to not be in a very good mood. Either that or he realizes his illustration isn't valid. I wanted to clarify some things with it, but I guess he thought I was trying to put words in his mouth. I don't do things like that. I figure if one is wrong, I can use their own words.

 

[DHK]

[DHk...at one point the sheep were living as children of wrath,until God quickens or regenerates them....so the command is for all...the unsaved that you list...plus the lost sheep the lost sheep then are found by Jesus through the preaching of the word,and they are drawn savingingly to Jesus. So your statement that excludes the sheep from being part of all men is a false statement and you are confusing yourself

how many times do i have to post it before you deny that I posted several times....calvinists believe and use this verse all the time?

Let's look at this one more time.
God commands all men everywhere to repent.
Before sheep were saved they were unregenerated like the rest of the world. They were, as you say, "lost sheep." Through the preaching of the Word they were drawn to Jesus.

But the command is for all men everywhere to repent.
What about the unregenerate that remain unregenerate?

What you don't mention is that the "lost sheep" were given "faith" to believe, and then they had the ability to believe and become sheep. But that is not what the command infers. The command negates that belief.

The command states: God commands all men everywhere to repent.
That command infers that the unregenerate must already have the ability to believe. God does not give commands that cannot be obeyed. The Calvinist believes that faith comes only after regeneration. Acts 17:30 requires faith to repent. One cannot repent without faith. Faith is needed. This is where Calvinism falls apart.

Secondly the command is given to the totally depraved. A totally depraved person is commanded to repent. He is not regenerated first. He first must repent. Then he may become regenerated. Faith comes first; it always comes first. He needs the faith in order to repent. Calvinism has it backwards. Thus Acts 17:30 defeats many of the premises of Calvinism. Faith comes first, as does repentance.

 

[Iconoclast]

Let's look at this one more time.
God commands all men everywhere to repent.
Before sheep were saved they were unregenerated like the rest of the world. They were, as you say, "lost sheep." Through the preaching of the Word they were drawn to Jesus.

Ok....so far....


But the command is for all men everywhere to repent.
What about the unregenerate that remain unregenerate?


DHK...they say this;

14But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.[/Q

They are responsible to repent,but rather than repent....they rebel everytime....they are drawn to sin...because they love sin...more than God.
they are God haters and truth supressors....they will love sin unto the second death....That is their plight.....apart from God taking any action.

Natural man cannot ,and will not come to God.
it is not calvinism that is at fault here...you have a wounded Adam..instead of a dead Adam...so you claim he can do it all by himself..that is why we will never come to agreement.....In Adam All DIE....not in Adam all were wounded but we hope they will make a nice choice,and accept or little proposition.


is that the "lost sheep" were given "faith" to believe, and then they had the ability to believe and become sheep

I have mentioned that in several threads ...but verse 30 is very specific.

But that is not what the command infers. The command negates that belief.

The command stands by itself..it negates nothing.

The command states: God commands all men everywhere to repent.
That command infers that the unregenerate must already have the ability to believe.

You make that inference on your own....the command does not make it however.....that is your error.

God does not give commands that cannot be obeyed.

This has already been shown...Lazarus come forth!

The Calvinist believes that faith comes only after regeneration. Acts 17:30 requires faith to repent.

No one verse lays out a complete chronology or timeline of how salvation unfolds. I said that in the first post,and you ignored it..I said we look through all of scripture to get a correct understanding.


One cannot repent without faith. Faith is needed. This is where Calvinism falls apart.

One of the main points of the reformation was sola fide

Contents
[hide] 1 Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
2 Sola fide ("by faith alone")
3 Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
4 Solus Christus or Solo Christo ("Christ alone" or "through Christ alone")
5 Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")

so this is nonsense..try again

Secondly the command is given to the totally depraved. A totally depraved person is commanded to repent. He is not regenerated first. He first must repent. Then he may become regenerated. Faith comes first; it always comes first. He needs the faith in order to repent.


Salvation is never ...never...because of faith....it is always by faith ..or through faith...never because of faith..as long as you resist this your error will repeat itself!
If a depraved person is not regenerated first..he remains unsaved.and dead..or unregenerate


Calvinism has it backwards.

You my friend have it completely backwards..so it seems that way to you..but we all see it just the opposite of what you post:thumbsup:
Thus Acts 17:30 defeats many of the premises of Calvinism. Faith comes first, as does repentance.

..........................

 

[JesusFan]

Let's look at this one more time.
God commands all men everywhere to repent.
Before sheep were saved they were unregenerated like the rest of the world. They were, as you say, "lost sheep." Through the preaching of the Word they were drawn to Jesus.

Ok....so far....


But the command is for all men everywhere to repent.
What about the unregenerate that remain unregenerate?


DHK...they say this;



..........................

the Non cals err on just HOW they tend to view the fall, and its effect upon mankind...

Also in how the fail to see that in the Cross, God has provoded for a definite salvation to His own, not a might be/possible////

Finally, tend to fail to see that God is one who initiates salvation, based on NOTHING He sees in us, not faith/obedience etc!

 

[DHK]

the Non cals err on just HOW they tend to view the fall, and its effect upon mankind...

Also in how the fail to see that in the Cross, God has provoded for a definite salvation to His own, not a might be/possible////

Finally, tend to fail to see that God is one who initiates salvation, based on NOTHING He sees in us, not faith/obedience etc!

As I have been stating over and over again, your blind presuppositions cause you to deny the truths so clearly presented in Acts 17:30.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30)

You may as well cut the verse out of your Bible.

 

[JesusFan]

As I have been stating over and over again, your blind presuppositions cause you to deny the truths so clearly presented in Acts 17:30.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30)

You may as well cut the verse out of your Bible.

Not at All!

God commands ALL to repent, Gospel message to ALL, Just those whom God has chosen will be actually able to fulfill that requirement to repent and believe and receive jesus as Lord!l

 

[DHK]

Not at All!

God commands ALL to repent, Gospel message to ALL, Just those whom God has chosen will be actually able to fulfill that requirement to repent and believe and receive jesus as Lord!l

The one flaw in your statement:
God commands ALL to repent, Gospel message to ALL, Just those who freely chose God will repent and believe Christ as Lord.

That is what the verse teaches.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30)

It speaks of men repenting; men choosing God; not the other way around.
Why do you twist what the Scripture says? Are you now going to cut it out of your Bible?

 

[JesusFan]

The one flaw in your statement:
God commands ALL to repent, Gospel message to ALL, Just those who freely chose God will repent and believe Christ as Lord.

That is what the verse teaches.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30)

It speaks of men repenting; men choosing God; not the other way around.
Why do you twist what the Scripture says? Are you now going to cut it out of your Bible?

No!

the "All' has to be qualified and defined in this contex!

Whom are the 'All" that God commands to come to Christ and be saved?

They are the elect of God!