just How Do the DoG Provide "sinner an excuse?"

Never, the Word is the final authority. I could care less if my theology lines up with Calvinism or not. I've never tried to fit my doctrine in Calvinism. It's just that Calvinism closely resembles what I believe. That's of course why once in a while I might have a difference with many Calvinists on certain things.

 

Icono:
I have read the last few pages and noticed that a challenge was issued to you from Acts 17:30

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30)

It seems to me that at every point you avoided any substantive answer to this verse and only made excuses as it addresses the issues of Calvinism quite well. I have not seen you post a decent rebuttal yet. But let me summarize some of my own arguments how this one Scripture is a bane, a troubling Scripture to all Calvinists.

1. Total Depravity. Man is so depraved that he has no ability to turn to God.
--Yet the Bible says that God commands all men every where to repent. There is no mention of any regeneration coming first. There is the command to repent. It is given to all men everywhere.

2. Unconditional Election. If Unconditional Election were true then God would not issue a command to all men everywhere to repent. The two concepts are opposed to each other.

3. Limited Atonement. This doctrine alone is a travesty of New Testament truth as over and over again the Bible teaches such truths as Christ "is a propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world." But here also He commands all men every where to repent.

4. Irresistable Grace. If the grace of God is irresistable why would God issue such a command: that all men everywhere need to repent. This one verse completely destroys this aspect of Calvinism.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30)
--In fact Acts 17:30 destroys Calvinism all by itself without the many other supporting verses of the Bible. You have not been able to refute this.

 

Reply to Mandym,

Note "the things of the Spirit of God"? What are these spiritual things? The ones learned with the aid our our indwelt Holy Spirit (YES) or all spiritual things (NO). If you read the passage through 1 Corinthians 3:3 you will see Paul speaking to "babes in Christ" as if they were "men of flesh" because they could not understand meat. Thus the inescapable conclusion is "men of flesh" can understand "milk" which refers to the fundamentals of the gospel.

Thus by the very passage you cited, Total Spiritual Inability is shown clearly not to be a scriptural doctrine.

 

Reply to Mandym,

Yes, see Luke 10:25-37, which tells the story of the Good Samaritan. In verse 31, Jesus says someone was traveling the road by chance.

 

Reply to Jbh28

Does this born again believer believe that I think born anew folks go to hell?
Nope. He is just deceiving others by putting words in my mouth in the form of a question. Pay no attention to this false teacher.

The Calvinist doctrine of Irresistible Grace, or whatever they are calling it this week, is false doctrine. Matthew 23:13 teaches men were entering heaven, and therefore according to the false doctrine of Irresistible Grace had been regenerated, quickened, etc, but then those supposedly altered men are turned aside by false teachers. Therefore the grace needed to enter heaven is not irresistible.

Does the above say they had been born anew? When exactly are we born anew? When God puts us spiritually in Christ. When do we enter the kingdom of heaven, when God puts us spiritually in Christ. Why does God put someone in Christ? He chooses them based on accepting their faith in Christ, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. So they were putting their faith in Christ when they were turned aside by false teaching, for if God had accepted their faith, they would not have been "entering heaven" they would have "entered heaven" when God put them in Christ where they would undergo the circumcision of Christ and be born anew, when they arose in Christ a new creation.

So by the numbers (1) God accepts a person's faith, and chooses (elects) to put the individual into Christ spiritually.
(2) The Holy Spirit baptizes the person spiritually into Christ, where they undergo the circumcision of Christ,
(3) They arise in Christ a new creation, born anew from above, and are now and forever in the kingdom of God.

 

Nobody put any words in your mouth, I only asked a question.

Could you please explain to me then your illustration. You said that they were regenerate/born again, but did not enter heaven. Where did they go?

You stated: "men were entering heaven, and therefore according to the false doctrine of Irresistible Grace had been regenerated, quickened, etc, but then those supposedly altered men are turned aside by false teachers."

Maybe I'm missing your point.

 

DHK,

I am not sure which post has this in it....i have not seen it....must have overlooked it.
Nevertheless....I will gladly respond to your ideas here!

Calvinism is not at all affected, or as you say destroyed by this verse at all.
Everyone I know ,or read enjoy this whole chapter ,and this verse in particular.

Paul does a great job taking in the situation,making an assesment, and re-directing these idolaters to the true and living God!

He first from vs 24-29 establishes God....the one true God of creation....has complete and sovereign rights over all men in His created world.

Men are in sin and idolatry and are perishing.....He sums up the situation, and lets them know of what the true and living God demands , in light of judgement to come!

DHK..... it does not meanthat before this time men did not go to hell justly for their sins, or any other such thing.......He is just summing up a history of mans rebellion against God......BUT NOW.....they are faced with the cross,and resurrection ....he is calling them to account for their sin...

This is the teaching of scripture known as calvinism.....it does not have to display all 5 points in every verse.
This section fits in perfectly and is often used in calvinistic sermons urging sinners to repent.
I am not certain why you think this is problamatic.

1. Total Depravity. Man is so depraved that he has no ability to turn to God.

This is correct:thumbs:

--Yet the Bible says that God commands all men every where to repent.

This is also correct:thumbs:


There is no mention of any regeneration coming first.

That is correct. We find that in other portions of scripture as you should know by now. Not every verse contains all truth. This verse says nothing about many things....He is focusing on the need of men to repent of sins.

There is the command to repent. It is given to all men everywhere.

Yes,,,that is the gospel command...repent and believe, repent and be baptized...it is universal .

2. Unconditional Election. If Unconditional Election were true

It is true and clearly taught

then God would not issue a command to all men everywhere to repent.

He already has

The two concepts are opposed to each other.

Not at all! DHK.....let me say it like this
If God did not tell us one verse about His elective purposes for the sheep....

But Just revealed our need to repent...that would not change the FACT....the the Father has already given a multitude to the Son.....Who the Son comes to save.
All men are responsible to repent and believe.....period.

The fact that God then reveals this truth to the sheep does not affect the goats, because we do not know who are goats,and who are sheep...so we preach to all men..
The knowledge of the Fact of election does in no way hinder me from freely offering the truth of the gospel to all persons i meet...in fact it spurs me on knowing that some are lost sheep , who Jesus seeks by His word!

3. Limited Atonement. This doctrine alone is a travesty of New Testament truth as over and over again the Bible teaches such truths as Christ "is a propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world." But here also He commands all men every where to repent.

No DHK.....the truth of the covenant death ,and particular redemption of Jesus..which is worldwide in scope....does not change anything....on the last day it will come out exactly as God has purposed it to.
Your mis-representing this teaching might be considered by some as a "travesty'...but the teaching is just fine by itself.

4. Irresistable Grace. If the grace of God is irresistable why would God issue such a command: that all men everywhere need to repent. This one verse completely destroys this aspect of Calvinism.

No it does not. Irresistable grace is not ultimately resisted by the sheep.
Ungodly reprobates always resist God's grace and remain in the realm of death. It is only that you do not correctly understand the teaching as you are attempting to fight against it that makes it seem so to you.



And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30)
--In fact Acts 17:30 destroys Calvinism all by itself without the many other supporting verses of the Bible. You have not been able to refute this.[/QUOTE]
I do not have to refute something I believe is true....do I???
:thumbs:

 

Having been a Calvinist for a long time, I will say this assessment is true. Many from the 'non-cal' side don't see things from the Calvinistic perspective.

However, it has been my experience as well that many Calvinists don't see things correctly from the scholarly non-calvinistic perspective. They think they do because they considered themselves "Arminian" prior to becoming a Calvinist, but the truth is most weren't "Arminian" they were just ignorant of the subject all together. They didn't know what else to do with the 'difficult' passages, so they reluctantly submitted to what appeared to be the only possible interpretation...the Calvinistic one. (as was my testimony)

 

Who has made that argument? I'm not denying that some might wrongly argue this point, but it appears to me that the charge being brought has more to do with God's inviting and making appeals to people who He decreed to be born totally unable to respond due to the Fall of Adam. We are talking about men's inability to willingly come when called, not their attempting to come but being rejected.

It's more than that. They CAN'T want to come to Christ because they have no control over their desire. In fact, God must first irresistibly change their desire. Yet, all the while, God seems to really want them to come by "longing to gather them" and "holding out his hands to them" and "desiring them to repent."

 

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You can't have it both ways, Icono. If God has commanded all men everywhere to repent that defies man's total inability to repent. He must therefore have the ability to repent. God does not give commands that man cannot obey. He has the ability to repent, not "Total Inability," or Total Depravity. Repent! And again I say unto you, Repent! Not, "Be regenerated and then repent." The Bible nowhere says that; nowhere teaches that. It is a man-made doctrine.

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You cannot draw Scripture out of context to make it fit this context.
There is the command to repent. It is given to all men everywhere. The command is to repent; not to regenerate!

Absolutely. Thus regeneration is not first; repentance and belief are which occur at the same time. This was not a command given to Jews, but a command given to unsaved Gentiles. Furthermore it was applicable to "all men everywhere," that is to men in Africa, South America, every where in the world to repent!

God commanded all men everywhere to repent! This command is not written to God's sheep. It is written to all men everywhere--to the heathen, the Gentiles, the publicans, the unsaved; all men everywhere. It is not written to the sheep. It is to the unsaved.

That negates the Calvinistic idea of unconditional election. All men everywhere are commanded to repent. But you don't believe that. You believe it is only applicable to the elect.

True. We don't know who the sheep are. Thus the command goes out to everyone. All men must receive the command to repent. The preaching of the gospel is not just for the elect but for all, though not all will receive it. This has been the non-Cal position all along. But not all Calvinists agree with it.

Why am I misrepresenting it. I call it like I see it. It is not limited if it is offered to all. He commands all men everywhere to repent. That means that it is offered to all, not just to the elect. We are not looking forward to God's omniscience here as to the final outcome--as to the knowledge God has as to who will be saved and who will not be. That is God's business, not ours. We need not worry ourselves with it.
Now, God commands all men everywhere to repent. That becomes our business. The implications of the command are great. It ties in with the Great Commission--the onus on us to get the gospel out to all men, that they may have the opportunity to repent. It indeed is worldwide in scope.
The Calvinists that I have spoken with do not agree with. In fact they try and change the very meaning of John 3:16 to excuse their faithfulness in serving God, because the world that God died for is not their world.

Stephen spoke of Irresistable Grace in Acts 7:51 but he was not speaking of the sheep.
Acts 17:30 speaks of repentance for "all men everywhere," not just the sheep, but also the goats, so to speak. They are all commanded to repent. This command is not just given to sheep. It is resisted by the unsaved over and over and over again. God commands all men to repent, not just his sheep.

If it contradicts the Bible at almost every point you must either refute it or repent from it. Which one?

 

I disagree. Point 1 exalts the view of man by giving them an excuse for their unbelief. They can say, "God didn't spiritually discern the gospel for me so I could understand it and accept it." A perfect defense.

Point 2 affirms they are "without excuse," because God has spiritually discerned his good news so that anyone can accept it. They are RESPONSE-ABLE!

 

I'm saying that Calvinism gives unbelievers a good defense or excuse for their unbelief.

I understand that the fault of depravity in the Cal system rest on the representation of Adam in the fall, but that is beside the point. We are talking about AFTER the fall when God makes an appeal for his enemies to believe/repent and be reconciled to God. What excuse is better for their unbelief than the one Calvinism gives them?

 

The same as saying "God, you condemned me from the start and never gave me a chance. If you had given me the same chance as you gave your elect maybe I would have done better."

"But you loved them more than you did me so what chance did you give me?"


Good argument

John

 

This verse cannot possibly be speaking about the gospel, because in verse 12 it says these persons had already received the Spirit that they "might know the things that are freely given to us of God".

So, the "things of the Spirit" in verse 14 cannot be the gospel.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Calvinism teaches you must be regenerated (born again) by the Spirit to be made willing to hear and able to believe, but Paul taught a person hears and believes to receive the Spirit. So those with the Spirit in 1 Cor 2:12 had already heard and believed to receive the Spirit that they might be able to "receive the things of the Spirit" in verse 14.

This is further confirmed by Eph 1:13

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom after ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy spirit of promise,

Again, we see a person first hears the gospel, secondly they believe, and thirdly they receive the Spirit.

So, 1 Cor 2:14 cannot be saying a natural man is incapable of hearing and believeing the gospel as some falsely misinterpret this verse.

 

DHK

You cannot draw Scripture out of context to make it fit this context.
There is the command to repent. It is given to all men everywhere. The command is to repent; not to regenerate!

Absolutely. Thus regeneration is not first; repentance and belief are which occur at the same time. This was not a command given to Jews, but a command given to unsaved Gentiles. Furthermore it was applicable to "all men everywhere," that is to men in Africa, South America, every where in the world to repent!
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God commanded all men everywhere to repent! This command is not written to God's sheep. It is written to all men everywhere--to the heathen, the Gentiles, the publicans, the unsaved; all men everywhere. It is not written to the sheep. It is to the unsaved.

That negates the Calvinistic idea of unconditional election. All men everywhere are commanded to repent. But you don't believe that. You believe it is only applicable to the elect.

True. We don't know who the sheep are. Thus the command goes out to everyone. All men must receive the command to repent. The preaching of the gospel is not just for the elect but for all, though not all will receive it. This has been the non-Cal position all along. But not all Calvinists agree with it.


Why am I misrepresenting it. I call it like I see it. It is not limited if it is offered to all. He commands all men everywhere to repent. That means that it is offered to all, not just to the elect. We are not looking forward to God's omniscience here as to the final outcome--as to the knowledge God has as to who will be saved and who will not be. That is God's business, not ours. We need not worry ourselves with it.
Now, God commands all men everywhere to repent. That becomes our business. The implications of the command are great. It ties in with the Great Commission--the onus on us to get the gospel out to all men, that they may have the opportunity to repent. It indeed is worldwide in scope.
The Calvinists that I have spoken with do not agree with. In fact they try and change the very meaning of John 3:16 to excuse their faithfulness in serving God, because the world that God died for is not their world.

Stephen spoke of Irresistable Grace in Acts 7:51 but he was not speaking of the sheep.
Acts 17:30 speaks of repentance for "all men everywhere," not just the sheep, but also the goats, so to speak. They are all commanded to repent. This command is not just given to sheep. It is resisted by the unsaved over and over and over again. God commands all men to repent, not just his sheep.

If it contradicts the Bible at almost every point you must either refute it or repent from it. Which one?[/QUOTE]

Regeneration is the work of God...not man. Only a regenerated man repents.That is a seperate thread.
You are somehow mis-reading my post which I thought was clear.
[QUOTEActs 17:30 speaks of repentance for "all men everywhere," not just the sheep, but also the goats, so to speak][/QUOTE]

Sheep are included in the all men everywhere!!! I never said it did not include them. Why are you trying to make it as if i denied this???
Sinners everywhere are commanded to repent....this is not the issue.
I think you are not considering my responses carefully enough.Slow down and try to understand what I am writing.
The unseen work of the Spirit causes some men to repent....not all men.
God does not command men to be regenerated....because He regenerates the sheep...that is His work.....when He does we know it because they repent and believe . This is simple ...not hard to grasp.:thumbsup:
This is the scriptural teaching! I answered this all in My reply to your acts 17:30 question...but you repeat this;
[QUOTEGod commanded all men everywhere to repent! This command is not written to God's sheep. It is written to all men everywhere--to the heathen, the Gentiles, the publicans, the unsaved; all men everywhere. It is not written to the sheep. It is to the unsaved. ][/QUOTE]

DHk...at one point the sheep were living as children of wrath,until God quickens or regenerates them....so the command is for all...the unsaved that you list...plus the lost sheep:thumbsup: the lost sheep then are found by Jesus through the preaching of the word,and they are drawn savingingly to Jesus. So your statement that excludes the sheep from being part of all men is a false statement and you are confusing yourself:thumbs:

 

God would never command all men to repent if only a regenerated man could repent. That is why the Acts 17:30 defeats Calvinism at every step. You have to change the Bible in order squeeze the truth of Acts 17:30 into the Calvinistic narrow "thought-box." God commands all men everywhere to repent. It does not say God commands only the regenerate to repent! Icon! Why are you trying to change what the Bible says??

God commands sheep to repent.--Agreed.
God commands the "goats" (that is, the unsaved)
God commands all men everywhere to be saved. That statement needs no revision. You can't insert regenerated into that statement, not sheep into that statement. It is "all men everywhere"--Jew and Gentile: all the unsaved, everywhere.

[/quote]
You are deliberately adding to the Scriptures and changing what the Bible says, all to make it fit into your "Calvinistic thought-box."
1. Acts 17:30 says nothing about being regenerated. It says that all men everywhere must repent, not be regenerated. Don't add to the Word things that are not there.
2. In the above paragraph you have simply put forth a typical Calvinistic syllogism which is no where found in Acts 17:30. In fact the teaching of Acts 17:30 clearly contradicts your thoughts given in the above paragraph. You have a choice set before you. You can either believe the "thought box" of Calvinism or the truths set forth in the Bible as summarized in Acts 17:30. These are the truths that the Bible teaches; that the Apostles taught; that the ECF taught.

 

God commands us to be holy and that's impossible for us to do.

That's exactly why it would be the gospel.

 

False. The scriptures clearly show that a man first hears the gospel, then believes it, and then after believeing receives the Spirit (Gal 3:2, Eph 1:13)

1 Cor 2:12 states these persons had already received the Spirit, therefore they had already heard the gospel and believed it. 1 Cor 2:12 also says they had received the Spirit in order that they might know "the things of God" that are freely given us.

Therefore, those "things of the Spirit" in verse 14 cannot be the gospel, because they already had the Spirit as shown in verse 12.

Calvinism misinterprets and misrepresents 1 Cor 2:14 to teach that natural men cannot hear and believe the gospel. Both Gal 3:2 and Eph 1:13 refute this erroneous Calvinist interpretation.