just How Do the DoG Provide "sinner an excuse?"

[Iconoclast]

Matt,

the god of calvinism is responsible for people's sin.

You will give an account to "the God of Calvinism"

I would not blame the true and living God for mans sin....you like winman are declaring ungodly thought and need to repent.

 

[matt wade]

sorry, but that's a total false statement of our belief. No Calvinist believes that God is responsible for people's sin. Man is responsible for his sin.

You won't openly admit it, but the calvinist line of thinking leads to the calvinist {God} being responsible for sin.

 

[Winman]

Sorry, but sin is exactly why people go to hell in Calvinism. Saying anything else is to misrepresent us. We have corrected you. If you think otherwise, you are changing our view. Without sin, there is no reason for Christ; no reason for grace; no reason for mercy. Sin has to be the reason one goes to hell. One that doesn't go to hell is because he is justified and therefore not guilty of sin.

You can say anything you want, it doesn't mean it is true. In your system a man is born dead in sin and cannot possibly do anything other than sin. It is not his fault he is a sinner, God decreed he would be born that way.

An unelect person is actually fulfilling God's will when he sins, he is doing exactly what God decreed he should do.

Now, that is pretty messed up, your doctrine teaches that a person can do the will of God and sin at the same time.

Oh, you will say that is a misrepresentation, but only because Calvinists think of clever arguments to conceal what they really believe.

Let me ask you, did God decree that the unelect would be born dead in sin and only able to sin?

Answer that question honestly (and directly) if you dare.

 

[matt wade]

Matt,


You will give an account to "the God of Calvinism"

I would not blame the true and living God for mans sin....you like winman are declaring ungodly thought and need to repent.

If [edit] calvinism is true, then I'm only speaking things that stem from my desires, desires placed there by [edit] calvinism. No need to repent in that case.

 

[quantumfaith]

Matt,


You will give an account to "the God of Calvinism"

I would not blame the true and living God for mans sin....you like winman are declaring ungodly thought and need to repent.

You forgot the prefacing phrase, "but in calvinism". Just wanted you to make certain that you got the quote correct.

 

[jbh28]

You won't openly admit it, but the calvinist line of thinking leads to the [snip][God] being responsible for sin.

There's nothing to admit, it's simply not what we beleive. Any statement that say that from now on will be a lie about us.

 

[Skandelon]

The sodomite who uses lady gaga theology...i was born this way.......does not remove his guilt before a holy God.

Let me ask you. Do you believe the "sodomite" had a choice, or do you believe he was born to be gay and couldn't have chosen otherwise?

Doesn't that answer make a difference regarding the level of guilt most would place upon the individual?

Personally, I think they have a chose thus when they choose sin they should be held to account. Don't you?

To suggest that people are born unable to willingly believe and accept God's genuine appeal to be reconciled only gives them an excuse and lessons their guilt. You exalt the view of man in providing them this defense. My view says they are completely guilty because they chose to sin even though they could have chosen to do otherwise. They are RESPONSE-ABLE.

 

[jbh28]

Oh, you will say that is a misrepresentation, but only because Calvinists think of clever arguments to conceal what they really believe.

There's nothing to "conceal." We have stated what we believe. Anything else is to misrepresent us.

 

[Winman]

There's nothing to "conceal." We have stated what we believe. Anything else is to misrepresent us.

I notice you didn't answer my question.

Once again, did God decree that the unelect would be born dead in sin and only able to sin?

A simple yes or no answer will suffice.

 

[jbh28]

I notice you didn't answer my question.

Once again, did God decree that the unelect would be born dead in sin and only able to sin?

A simple yes or no answer will suffice.

Yes, God decreed to allow man to sin. God decreed that man would need a Savior. God isn't reactionary.

 

[Iconoclast]

If the god of calvinism is true, then I'm only speaking things that stem from my desires, desires placed there by the god of calvinism. No need to repent in that case.

This shows a complete lack of understanding of the teaching of the word of God.

 

[InTheLight]

All men every where are commanded to repent and believe the gospel, not to whine and make excuses for why they enjoyed a life of sin

Yes, but in Calvinism you have a paradox: God commands all men everywhere to repent, yet in Calvinism man cannot repent without God enabling them. I wonder why God would command humans to do things that He knows they cannot do?

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, but in Calvinism you have a paradox: God commands all men everywhere to repent, yet in Calvinism man cannot repent without God enabling them. I wonder why God would command humans to do things that He knows they cannot do?

Jesus commanded the man with the withered hand to stretch forth his hand, the man who could not walk, to rise up and walk,
Lazarus...come forth...the thing he could not do/
God enables His people to obey his commands. Men are responsible not to sin...but they love sin.

 

[Winman]

Yes, God decreed to allow man to sin. God decreed that man would need a Savior. God isn't reactionary.

What do you mean by allow? If God decreed that the unelect would be born dead in sin and could only sin, doesn't that mean God caused them to sin?

Isn't a decree a cause? If not, please explain how God's decree cannot be a cause.

 

[InTheLight]

Jesus commanded the man with the withered hand to stretch forth his hand, the man who could not walk, to rise up and walk,
Lasarus...come forth...the thing he could not do

Those are specific actionable tasks performed by specific persons in the presence of the Lord. "God now commands all men everywhere to repent" is a blanket statement of a general nature.

Apples and oranges.

 

[jbh28]

What do you mean by allow? If God decreed that the unelect would be born dead in sin and could only sin, doesn't that mean God caused them to sin?

Isn't a decree a cause? If not, please explain how God's decree cannot be a cause.

Decree never means cause. A decree can come about because God causes it to happen, but doesn't have to be. It simply means that god foreordained that the even would take place. He could cause the even or allow the event to happen.

 

[InTheLight]

Decree never means cause. A decree can come about because God causes it to happen, but doesn't have to be. It simply means that god foreordained that the even would take place. He could cause the even or allow the event to happen.

Are you sure you're a Calvinist? :laugh:

 

[Skandelon]

Yes, but in Calvinism you have a paradox: God commands all men everywhere to repent, yet in Calvinism man cannot repent without God enabling them.

It's actually worse than that. God not only commands repentance, the scripture clearly shows that God "makes an appeal for all men to be reconciled." It reveals God "holding out his hands" and "longing to gather unbelievers" and "desiring all to come to faith and repentance," all of which fly in the face of Calvinism's unfounded presumption that men are born unable to willingly respond to such appeals.

It's like a Governor claiming to show mercy to all the inmates on death row by publicly proclaiming that any of them who apologize for their crimes will be pardoned, but privately only telling the few inmates that he has preselected to pardon about the deal. Not a person in the world would call that just. And notice, its not because any of the inmates deserved pardon that I call such action unjust. What makes it WRONG is the Governors public appeal and expressed desire to show mercy to all when in reality it is only meant and revealed to a preselected few.

 

[quantumfaith]

Those are specific actionable tasks performed by specific persons in the presence of the Lord. "God now commands all men everywhere to repent" is a blanket statement of a general nature.

Apples and oranges.

In algebra and calculus we say x and y, differentiable and non-differentiable, continuous and non-continuous, removable discontinuity and non-removable discontinuity.

 

[Skandelon]

Are you sure you're a Calvinist? :laugh:

Actually JHB is one of the few mainstream Calvinists on this board who haven't fallen into the extreme/hyper camp, IMO. He represents what we see taught by men like MacArthur, Piper and Sproul, for the most part, IMO. They are just so rare around here that he doesn't seem like a "Calvinist," but he is one of the few "true Calvinists" here as far as I'm concerned.

He also typically does so with more grace than many, which I appreciate.