just How Do the DoG Provide "sinner an excuse?"

[Winman]

Decree never means cause. A decree can come about because God causes it to happen, but doesn't have to be. It simply means that god foreordained that the even would take place. He could cause the even or allow the event to happen.

Now you are changing the definition of the word decree. A decree is a command or order. How can a command of God not be a cause?

 

[Iconoclast]

Those are specific actionable tasks performed by specific persons in the presence of the Lord. "God now commands all men everywhere to repent" is a blanket statement of a general nature.

Apples and oranges.

No...do not avoid the issue...you said How could God command people to do what they cannot do...i gave three examples. God still enables His people...the others do not want to.

 

[InTheLight]

In algebra and calculus we say x and y, differentiable and non-differentiable, continuous and non-continuous, removable discontinuity and non-removable discontinuity.

Yes, I remember those terms. Forgotten how to use them, but I remember the words. :laugh:

(I've had 2+ years of university level calculus, differential equations, and vector analysis.)

 

[Skandelon]

Are you sure you're a Calvinist? :laugh:

Actually JHB is one of the few mainstream Calvinists on this board who haven't fallen into the extreme/hyper camp, IMO. He represents what we see taught by men like MacArthur, Piper and Sproul, for the most part, IMO. They are just so rare around here that he doesn't seem like a "Calvinist," but he is one of the few "true Calvinists" here as far as I'm concerned.

He also typically debates with more grace than many, which I appreciate.

 

[InTheLight]

No...do not avoid the issue...you said How could God command people to do what they cannot do...i gave three examples. God still enables His people...the others do not want to.

Yep, physical responses to a healing command given directly by the Lord to individual people. Of course these people wanted to be healed!

But as Calvinist dogma goes, man hates God, hates the light, so would never want to turn toward the light (repent) and even if he wanted to, he's unable to do so.

 

[jbh28]

Now you are changing the definition of the word decree. A decree is a command or order. How can a command of God not be a cause?

Um, I didn't change the definition of decree. It's a command or order, that's correct. In theology, we refer to things that God has foreordained. Same things. God decrees/foreordains that an event will happen. He doesn't have to cause that event to happen in order for the even to happen. Cain is going to kill able. God doesn't have to cause or force Cain to kill him.

 

[quantumfaith]

Actually JHB is one of the few mainstream Calvinists on this board who haven't fallen into the extreme/hyper camp, IMO. He represents what we see taught by men like MacArthur, Piper and Sproul, for the most part, IMO. They are just so rare around here that he doesn't seem like a "Calvinist," but he is one of the few "true Calvinists" here as far as I'm concerned.

He also typically does so with more grace than many, which I appreciate.

I second that

 

[quantumfaith]

Yes, I remember those terms. Forgotten how to use them, but I remember the words. :laugh:

(I've had 2+ years of university level calculus, differential equations, and vector analysis.)

You must be an engineer. Wished more of my students would take Calculus and beyond.

 

[Winman]

Um, I didn't change the definition of decree. It's a command or order, that's correct. In theology, we refer to things that God has foreordained. Same things. God decrees/foreordains that an event will happen. He doesn't have to cause that event to happen in order for the even to happen. Cain is going to kill able. God doesn't have to cause or force Cain to kill him.

So, when I've read in several Ref/Cal creeds that God has decreed all things whatsoever that come to pass, he is not causing these things to come to pass? He is just real lucky and things are happening the way he wants?

That's quite a trick.

 

[jbh28]

So, when I've read in several Ref/Cal creeds that God has decreed all things whatsoever that come to pass, he is not causing these things to come to pass? He is just real lucky and things are happening the way he wants?

That's quite a trick.

I didn't say he doesn't cause any even. It's not an all or nothing type thing. Some things, yes he causes. others, no. There is no luck with God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yep, physical responses to a healing command given directly by the Lord to individual people. Of course these people wanted to be healed!

But as Calvinist dogma goes, man hates God, hates the light, so would never want to turn toward the light (repent) and even if he wanted to, he's unable to do so.

Another post where you cannot face the truth. Jesus commanded them to do what they could not do. That is the point that you avoid.
What you refer to as calvinist dogma...is biblical truth.
You just want to put down the teaching...you do not welcome it.

 

[Iconoclast]

It's actually worse than that. God not only commands repentance, the scripture clearly shows that God "makes an appeal for all men to be reconciled." It reveals God "holding out his hands" and "longing to gather unbelievers" and "desiring all to come to faith and repentance," all of which fly in the face of Calvinism's unfounded presumption that men are born unable to willingly respond to such appeals.

It's like a Governor claiming to show mercy to all the inmates on death row by publicly proclaiming that any of them who apologize for their crimes will be pardoned, but privately only telling the few inmates that he has preselected to pardon about the deal. Not a person in the world would call that just. And notice, its not because any of the inmates deserved pardon that I call such action unjust. What makes it WRONG is the Governors public appeal and expressed desire to show mercy to all when in reality it is only meant and revealed to a preselected few.

Your philosophy and carnal examples do nothing to change what scripture has declared. That men reject the free offer is on them alone.....and cannot be laid at God's feet as many wickedly propose.
Sometimes I cannot believe what some of you post about God. I know several pastors who no longer post here because they could not continue to read such horrendous things.

 

[Tom Butler]

Jesus said (Matt 5:48)

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect

Jesus set an impossible standard for us to meet--perfection. Actually, he could do no less. I don't think Jesus would say "Okay guys, I know you're not perfect, and you can't be perfect, so I'm going to cut you some slack. You can sin some, and I won't fry you for them. Just try to keep your sinning at a minimum."

That's why we throw ourselves upon God's mercy; he doesn't cut any of us any slack. Our sins have to be paid for. That's why Somebody had to pay. So we wouldn't have to.

 

[Skandelon]

Your philosophy and carnal examples do nothing to change what scripture has declared.

I suppose you'd say that about all analogies that reflect your dogma in a negative light, regardless of how accurate of a reflection it is. How is the analogy not a correct representation of your view?

That men reject the free offer is on them alone.....and cannot be laid at God's feet as many wickedly propose.

I agree with that statement, but it is untrue of your doctrine because the offer isn't "freely rejected" if the response was predetermined by God so as it could not have been otherwise.

I know several pastors who no longer post here because they could not continue to read such horrendous things.

Again, we don't believe these things, we believe YOUR DOCTRINE teaches these things, so in reality you should be repulsed by your own views, not ours.

 

[Greektim]

I suppose you'd say that about all analogies that reflect your dogma in a negative light, regardless of how accurate of a reflection it is. How is the analogy not a correct representation of your view?

I agree with that statement, but it is untrue of your doctrine because the offer isn't "freely rejected" if the response was predetermined by God so as it could not have been otherwise.

Again, we don't believe these things, we believe YOUR DOCTRINE teaches these things, so in reality you should be repulsed by your own views, not ours.

I can't believe that with all the vitriol coming from certain posters that this thread has not been closed yet. Even if I was not a calvinist, the ongoing "god of calvinism" quip gets old and highly offensive. I appreciate Icon's vigor to call people to repentance, but I would even argue that such a call does not have a place in academic, reasoned discussion (at least not the way he pontificates it around as if he is the arbiter of repentance; no offense, just what I observe). Therefore, this thread has very much deteriorated into pettiness. I am partially to blame. I say... we end this debate and start over with a more level-headed discussion.

 

[jbh28]

I can't believe that with all the vitriol coming from certain posters that this thread has not been closed yet. Even if I was not a calvinist, the ongoing "god of calvinism" quip gets old and highly offensive. I appreciate Icon's vigor to call people to repentance, but I would even argue that such a call does not have a place in academic, reasoned discussion (at least not the way he pontificates it around as if he is the arbiter of repentance; no offense, just what I observe). Therefore, this thread has very much deteriorated into pettiness. I am partially to blame. I say... we end this debate and start over with a more level-headed discussion.

The moderators are removing most of those posts of "god of calvinism." thanks mods(and admins)!

 

[psalms109:31]

Hebrews 12:
Warning and Encouragement
14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done.

Hebrews 3:
Warning Against Unbelief
7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”[Psalm 95:7-11]

12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”[Psalm 95:7,8]

16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Do men really think they are more powerful than God to actually be able to do something when God Himself places life and death before us through the words of Jesus and He wants us to choose life and live or take away God's Sovereignty, I don't think so.

I am so glad that God placed great men in my life that express the most important thing to trust in God and encouraged me to do so. They didn't care that I trusted in their belief system, but in God through Jesus, to not turn away from Him.

If you believe a person can't turn away from God that are truly His what will stop you from forcing your belief on someone who is being turned away from God by what you are preaching and God has not revealed to Him at that time? Is it encouraging to them? What if you are wrong and they were turned away from God by what you are preaching? DoG is an awesome belief , but can it be used wrong not for the purpose of God, but for our own purposes. To turn people to our belief system, even if it means they walk away from Jesus?

I am not trying to set up straw-men, but just wanting answer to the questions.

 

[seekingthetruth]

TULIP? Fact or theory?

I am really having a hard time keeping up with the flow of this thread.

Folks here are saying that they believe the points of TULIP on one side of their mouth, and then deny the truth about the actual application of TULIP on the other side of their mouth. And then they ridicule the folks questioning that theology, even using words like "ignorant".

If you believe in Calvinism in theory, then you cannot deny the facts of it's application.

For instance, have i been wasting my time trying to seek out God's will for me and my family? Is it not true that if I am one of the elect that there is no need for me to seek out God's will because He is going to force it on me. If He chooses for me to go to hell then seeking Him out is a waste of my time. And if He chooses to let me into heaven, then I cannot "resist" the Grace he will someday bestow on me, and seeking Him out is still a waste of my time.

According to Calvinists theory, I can't do anything to improve my spiritual state or bring myself and family closer to God, so why bother to even try?

Doesn't that make it a waste of time to teach the Bible to my son. He is in a Fundamental Baptist school, am I wasting money on that if God is going to reject Him anyway?

So why do I need to make any effort at all? Either He saves me, no matter what, or He rejects me, no matter what.

I know that my beliefs on this will be ridiculed by the Calvinists, and they will think I am "ignorant". But if you believe the theory of TULIP, then this example I gave is the only way for it to play out in actual application. There is no way to deny it.

By the way, if God makes the choice for us, then why did Jesus die on the cross?

 

[Winman]

I didn't say he doesn't cause any even. It's not an all or nothing type thing. Some things, yes he causes. others, no. There is no luck with God.

I do not understand how everything happens the way God decreed if he does not directly cause them. God decreed that Cain would murder Abel, yet he did not cause Cain to murder Abel? Then how can you explain this other than luck?

Are you saying God could foresee Cain's actions and allowed it? If so, that I would agree to.

But that is altogether different from saying God cursed man so that he would be born spiritually dead and impossible to respond positively to the Gospel. I would say that is direct cause, wouldn't you?

Let's say a man builds a robot that can walk forward at his command. Then he reverses the wiring so that it does the opposite. Now he commands it to walk forward, but each time he does, it walks backward. Now he is angry at his robot because it will not walk forward as he commands. Does that make sense?

That is exactly what you teach.

 

[quantumfaith]

Another post where you cannot face the truth. Jesus commanded them to do what they could not do. That is the point that you avoid.
What you refer to as calvinist dogma...is biblical truth.
You just want to put down the teaching...you do not welcome it.

Many do not "welcome" the teaching of calvininism. As to "putting it down", you will have to consult with ITL, but I don't see a difference with regard to you dismissing those of us who do not feel the same as do you. I think clearly ITL is not being disrespectful of you or anyone, rather emphasizing what he feels are salient points to question the calvinist position.