Justification versus Eternal Redemption

[Darrell C]

That would not be a Testimony of Salvation, then.

It is the culmination of Prophecy and Promise. It is the veryTestimony of the Word of God.

This is not how God Saves souls, Saved anyone, and it does not have a thing to do with Salvation:

Again, salvation has to be viewed according to the Age it is found in. As mentioned, Abraham was justified during his lifetime due to his response to the intervention of God in his life. God called him, he believed, faith was established, and that led to works. However...he died still in need of Eternal REdemption, which according to Scripture was accomplished by the Cross of Christ. I am still awaiting a Biblical support for the idea that the Atonement was applied during his lifetime. If that were the case...why did men need to offer up animals in their stead for remission of sins and atonement?

This is not Biblical and not of God:

"Only the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is salvific, and Christ is the Baptizer, not men."

So prove it by addressing the points. We both know you can't hence the emotional responses which disregard the points made. If you would simply take heed to these points...it will help you, and that is all I am trying to do.

Water baptism is not salvific, only the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is. It is the moment when we are saved, placed in Christ, and granted eternal life through our union with God.

Christ is the Baptizer, and that is just a fact:


Matthew 3:11-12 King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will He Baptizes with the Holy Ghost


He baptizes with the Holy Ghost, which is eternal salvation, and He baptizes with fire, which is eternal damnation.

It is not I you argue against, it is the Word of God.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The solution is simple: it depends on the age one is in.

This is true. In the Ages prior to this one men were justified in a temporal context, not an eternal. It is only after Christ died that the Old Testament Saints were Justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus:


Romans 3:21-25 King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Abraham was justified but died still in need of having his sins forgiven on an eternal basis:


Hebrews 10 King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Now let's see the Sacrifice that can make perfect/complete (in regards to why they are offered, remission of sins and atonement for sin) take away sins...forever:


Hebrews 10:10-14 King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


The sacrifices of the Law could not make perfect/complete, but CHrist's does so on an eternal basis. THat is what Abraham did not receive during his lifetime:


Hebrews 11:13 King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40 King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


They died not being made perfect/complete in regards to remission of sin and atonement, for God did not mean for it to take place "without us," which is verified in 1 Peter 1:10-12 where we see that the Prophets knew they ministered to a future generation.

Going back to Chapter Ten, let's look at the promise of the Father:


Hebrews 10:15-18 King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


When animals died in the stead of the sinner they had to be repeated, as mentioned numerous times in the above passages.

When Christ dies in the stead of a sinner...it never has to be repeated, because He has made that sinner perfect/complete in regards to Remission of Sin and Atonement.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Paul is speaking to church age believers.

This is true, but that doesn't change the fact that Abraham was not justified by the Blood of Christ until the Cross. THis is why we can have men justified by faith alone and by faith and works without contradiction: because it is dealing with a temporal context in James 2 and Romans4. If people would understand that Paul is giving an example of justification by belief and faith alone, rather than equating this with Eternal Redemption, then they would not interpret Romans 3 with Romans 4. That is what most do.

James was speaking to Jews living in the first few chapters of Acts (where the context was potentially tribulational) and also now prospectively to tribulation Jews.

Also Church Age believers.

And James is speaking of the same justification Paul is in Romans 4.

Let me ask you this: was Abraham saved because he believed God would give him a son? Or through the Cross of Christ? See the difference? IN Romans 4 Abraham is the one who did something to be justified/declared righteous. In Romans 3...it is Christ Who has done something for men to be justified. Justified through the REdemption which is in Christ Jesus.

Now if...


2 Corinthians 5:17-19 King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


...God was in Christ reconciling the world unto HImself how was any man reconciled to God prior to God being in Christ. or in other words...before the Incarnation?



Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

During the church age, justification is by faith alone.

Depends on what justification you are speaking of. If you speak of Temporal Justification, it is the same as it was in Abraham's day, by belief, faith, and works, and in that order. If you are speaking of ETernal Justification through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus, then it is by...

...grace alone.

Faith is a result of God's grace, and is never something men attain to on their own. God must reveal spiritual truth that they can respond to, and both forms of justification are a result of the grace God shows when he gives men the opportunity to come into obedience to His will.

During the tribulation, justification is by faith and works.

Same as above. Those saved in the Tribulation will be saved the same way men have always been saved:


Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We must be rightly dividing.

Agreed.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

No one is saved by Grace alone and the Bible never even once says such a thing. We are saved by Grace through faith. No Faith, No grace. Open your eyes to the complete truth of that verse.
MB

When we look at the initial cause for salvation...it is grace alone.

Faith is a result of the grace bestowed to men and it does not save the person...God does.

However, if you wish to believe you have, or are saving yourself with your faith...have at it.

As far as opening my eyes, that is good advice you should take:


Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Did your faith bring God to bestow the Gift? That's some faith you have.


God bless.

 

[MB]

When we look at the initial cause for salvation...it is grace alone.

Faith is a result of the grace bestowed to men and it does not save the person...God does.

However, if you wish to believe you have, or are saving yourself with your faith...have at it.

As far as opening my eyes, that is good advice you should take:


Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Did your faith bring God to bestow the Gift? That's some faith you have.


God bless.

Your claiming faith is not needed then you defeat your self and present a verse that says Grace comes through faith. This is not Grace alone. It's Grace being had through faith. Simple, No Faith, No Grace. Calvinist over look the Faith every single time.
MB

 

[Alan Gross]

Insults rather than addressing your antagonist's points is really bad form. Perhaps if you simply dealt with the points being made you would not have to stoop to such poor standards.

Secondly...there is only one Church, not churches.



More insinuation.

So let's address the point that the Spirit was not sent prior to Pentecost. You say men always received Him, let's again look at what Christ said:


John 16:7 King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


What does this mean if not that the Spirit could not come (the implication being He had not yet come) until Christ returned to Heaven?


Continued...

This is not an insult, it is a Hermeneutical Principal.

When someone uses a Hermeneutical Principal of,

"I hate God,
I hate The Bible,
I hate Jesus,
I don't care what they Say a 'church' is,
or whether Jesus Loves His churches He Built,
or that Jesus Died for His churches,

and

I don't know much at all about The Holy Spirit
and I DON'T WANT TO KNOW",

then their 'take' on these verses will be perverted heresy.

So be it.

 

[Alan Gross]

"Darrell C said: ↑
When we look at the initial cause for salvation..."

I would like to explore 'a need', if any, for Salvation.


Psalm 14:1

"The fool has said in his heart,
“There is no God.”

They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.

2 "The Lord looks down from heaven
upon the children of men,

To see if there are any who understand,
who seek God.

3 "They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;

There is none who does good,
No, not one."

 

[Alan Gross]

It is the culmination of Prophecy and Promise. It is the veryTestimony of the Word of God.




Again, salvation has to be viewed according to the Age it is found in. As mentioned, Abraham was justified during his lifetime due to his response to the intervention of God in his life. God called him, he believed, faith was established, and that led to works. However...he died still in need of Eternal REdemption, which according to Scripture was accomplished by the Cross of Christ. I am still awaiting a Biblical support for the idea that the Atonement was applied during his lifetime. If that were the case...why did men need to offer up animals in their stead for remission of sins and atonement?




So prove it by addressing the points. We both know you can't hence the emotional responses which disregard the points made. If you would simply take heed to these points...it will help you, and that is all I am trying to do.

Water baptism is not salvific, only the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is. It is the moment when we are saved, placed in Christ, and granted eternal life through our union with God.

Christ is the Baptizer, and that is just a fact:


Matthew 3:11-12 King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will He Baptizes with the Holy Ghost


He baptizes with the Holy Ghost, which is eternal salvation, and He baptizes with fire, which is eternal damnation.

It is not I you argue against, it is the Word of God.


God bless.

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 "And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7 "And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."

...

Romans 5:12-21;

12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 "And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 "Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 "That as sin hath reigned unto death..."

...

II Peter 3:5-7;

5 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

...

 

[Van]

How and when are be justified? Under the Old Covenant and under the New Covenant?

According to Hebrews 11, the OT Saints obtained approval by faith. Now when we see the word "faith" we need to read it as meaning "live faith" or "faithful faith" or faith from which faithfulness flows. The faith in view is not dead faith, superficial faith, or lip service faith.

Recall that God credited Abraham's faith as righteousness, thus Abraham's approval was based not on works, but God knowing Abraham's heart, on Abraham's "all in" commitment to God and His promises.

Having obtained approval, when the OT Saints died, they were taken to a place of comfort, where they waited until after Christ died on the cross. They had not been made perfect, flawless, but were then made perfect by the washing of regeneration, and so then they entered the kingdom of God in heaven.

Our justification is the same, only we do not wait, God puts us in Christ where we undergo the washing of regeneration and we arise in Christ a new creation, made holy and perfect.

 

[Darrell C]

Your claiming faith is not needed

Show where I said faith is not needed? You still do not understand...no grace...no faith.

then you defeat your self and present a verse that says Grace comes through faith.

Where in this...

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

...do you see "grace comes by faith?

You are committing the same error many do and think one is saved by faith through grace. We are saved by grace through faith...and this not of yourselves.

Now who is it that expresses faith? You and I, right? So if it is not of ourselves...what do you think he is referring to?

This is not Grace alone.

Let me state this again:

When we look at the initial cause for salvation...it is grace alone.

Faith is a result of the grace bestowed to men and it does not save the person...God does.

It's Grace being had through faith.

And there it is: you think you received grace because of your faith.

You did not. You received grace and this led to your faith being established.

Simple, No Faith, No Grace.

The exact opposite of what Scripture teaches both implicitly and explicitly. You are making grace a reward for faith.

Calvinist over look the Faith every single time.

I am not a Calvinist, lol.

Now, I ask you again:

Did your faith bring God to bestow the Gift?

You answer in a roundabout way in saying...

Simple, No Faith, No Grace.

...but I would like a direct answer.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

This is not an insult, it is a Hermeneutical Principal.

It's simply insult.

Just as this is:

When someone uses a Hermeneutical Principal of,

"I hate God,
I hate The Bible,
I hate Jesus,
I don't care what they Say a 'church' is,
or whether Jesus Loves His churches He Built,
or that Jesus Died for His churches,

and

I don't know much at all about The Holy Spirit
and I DON'T WANT TO KNOW",

then their 'take' on these verses will be perverted heresy.

So be it.

Why is it that you refuse to answer the questions posed to you?

We both know.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Well, I guess I can use the insult rendered in this post, completely irrelevant to the topic, to try once more to instruct you in a proper understanding of Scripture.

The topic will be whether men had eternal life or not in the Old Testament.

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 "And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7 "And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."

Here we have the Fall, Alan, and what I would suggest to you is that man was a physical being who did not have eternal life. Most feel he did, and that he lost it (died spiritually) when he sinned, and that is what his descendants have tried to get back.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Sounds good in a sermon, I know, and it tickes the ears of novice Bible Students who want people to think they actually know the Word of God, but did you ever notice...


Genesis 3:22-23 King James Version (KJV)

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.


That he was thrust out of the Garden so that he would not have "everlasting life?" Had they not sinned they would have live, physically...forever.

Now, something already mentioned to you, and ignored, is that men did not have "life" prior to the Cross. A few passages to support that:


John 3:9-15 King James Version (KJV)

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


I asked you before...if Christ had to be lifted up that men might have everlasting life...why do you teach that men had everlasting life before? That is what you do when you say, in direct contradiction to the Lord's teachings, that men received the Spirit of God in the Old Testament.

Nicodemus' question is "How can men be born again? How can they be born of water and of the Spirit? And the clear answer is Christ had to go to the Cross.

This took place when God sent His Son, not before:


John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


When did He give His Son?


Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


When were men redeemed from the Law? We can see right here that it is when Christ came that they were redeemed from the Law, so how is it that you have the Atonement occurring in the Old Testament?

Furthering our look at the fact no man had eternal life prior to Pentecost and the receiving of the Spirit:


John 6:49-53 King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Did Moses eat of the flesh of Christ? Not according to Christ. He ate manna and is declared dead. Not passed out of existence, simply not having received eternal life through Jesus Christ yet.

But these are hard things to digest (pun intended), especially if one is steeped in the traditional teachings of men.

Again I point out to you that no-one had received life because they had not received the Spirit of God in the Ministry of The Comforter:


John 7:38-39 King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Scripture states The Spirit was not yet given, you say He was.

And you say to me...

I don't know much at all about The Holy Spirit
and I DON'T WANT TO KNOW",

If you can show how my doctrine differs from what is written...do so. I have shown how your doctrine is the exact opposite of Scripture.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Romans 5:12-21;

12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 "And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 "Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 "That as sin hath reigned unto death..."

Note that "death passed to all men," not sin. That is another great misconception held by those with a shallow understanding of Scripture. If you look at Genesis 3 and then look here, the only logical conclusion one could possibly draw is that when Adam sinned...he brought death upon all men. AGain, Adam would have lived "forever" physically had he not sinned. He was thrust out of the Garden, according to God...that he not live forever.

Did he receive the Spirit of God by eating of the Tree of Life? Of course not.

We see that righteousness, which is the topic of the OP, is a gift. We see again a statement concerning...

18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Only the shed blood of Christ, His death, His being lifted up...can justify unto life. And that is what happens when we are saved in this Age. We receive the very life that Christ came to give:


John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Continued...

 

[MB]

Show where I said faith is not needed? You still do not understand...no grace...no faith.



Where in this...




...do you see "grace comes by faith?

You are committing the same error many do and think one is saved by faith through grace. We are saved by grace through faith...and this not of yourselves.

Really! You read Eph 2:8-9 and you come away with Grace can be had with out faith I'd say you are in error It's obvious you have a reading problem
Your acting like you know what you are talking about but you clearly do not. I showed you that Grace comes through faith.
Then I said No Faith No Grace.

Now who is it that expresses faith? You and I, right? So if it is not of ourselves...what do you think he is referring to?

Faith is of our selves and we aquire it through hearing the gospel. The gift is Salvation even though you want to make it seem as if faith is the gift..
You are just absolutely wrong. You don't know what you are talking about

Let me state this again:

Stop acting like you have authority over me I assure you that you do not.

And there it is: you think you received grace because of your faith.

You did not. You received grace and this led to your faith being established.
[/QUOTE}

Just like every other Calvinist you assume you know more than I do.Yet you are weak on scripture to prove Grace comes first. We are not saved in order to have faith we have faith so that we might be saved. Faith is not a work
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
If a man's faith can be counted for righteousness because he doesn't work then you are wrong.

The exact opposite of what Scripture teaches both implicitly and explicitly. You are making grace a reward for faith.

Your so wrong I feel sorry for you because you simply do not understand simple English.
If Grace comes through faith it comes through faith man's faith. There is no other faith spoken of by which we are saved
Rom_4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Are you going to deny this scripture as well?

I am not a Calvinist, lol.

Now, I ask you again:



You answer in a roundabout way in saying...



...but I would like a direct answer.


God bless.

You have a direct answer. I can't help it if you are unable to see it. You are a Calvinist when you object to what scripture clearly says about how to obtain Salvation. If you say you are Arminian believe me there is not much difference. You do not believe correctly. We are not saved by Grace alone Because Grace comes through faith. With out faith there can be no grace.
MB

 

[Darrell C]

II Peter 3:5-7;

5 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

...

Speaking of being willingly ignorant, I again ask why you will not answer the simple questions posed to you?

Why do you post irrelevant texts?

At this time I think perhaps a focus on whether men received the Spirit of God in the Minitry Christ teaches about would be helpful. It's pretty obvious John 14-16 make the point that Christ is going to return to Heaven and send the Comforter, and that the Comforter cannot come unless He does. So would you mind at least trying to present something Biblical for the positions you are taking?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Really! You read Eph 2:8-9 and you come away with Grace can be had with out faith

As I said, quote me saying that. That is simplytan erroneous conclusion you have drawn because apparently you are not understanding...even what you are saying. Much less Biblical Doctrine.

I'll post it again. Who knows, they say third time's the charm:

When we look at the initial cause for salvation...it is grace alone.

Faith is a result of the grace bestowed to men and it does not save the person...God does.

What part of "faith is a result of grace" do you not understand? You even supply the very means by which grace is bestowed to men:

...we aquire it through hearing the gospel.

Unfortunately you betray your erroneous doctrine with the first part of the statement:

Faith is of our selves and we aquire it through hearing the gospel.

And again, there we have it, teaching that the direct opposite of what Scripture states:


Ephesians 2:8 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Scripture states it is not of your self, you say it is.

I'd say you are in error It's obvious you have a reading problem

lol

Your acting like you know what you are talking about but you clearly do not.

Well, perhaps you ought to talk to someone you will listen to, like perhaps a Pastor. Tell him...

It's Grace being had through faith.

...and see what he says.

I showed you that Grace comes through faith.

Actually you did not, and cannot, because it's not to be found in Scripture. If that were the case it would say "You are saved by faith through grace, and that of yourselves, it's not the gift of God."

That is your position and it is error.

Then I said No Faith No Grace.

Also erroneous. That's what grace means, lol, God's unmerited favor. It's not something that is earned:


Titus 3:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Saved by grace based on the mercy of God bestowed to sinners. Just a Bible basic.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Faith is of our selves and we aquire it through hearing the gospel.

Again:

Ephesians 2:8 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The gift is Salvation even though you want to make it seem as if faith is the gift..

On the contrary, salvation is a gift, and I made that clear:

Now who is it that expresses faith? You and I, right? So if it is not of ourselves...what do you think he is referring to?

Did your faith bring God to bestow the Gift? That's some faith you have.

You are just absolutely wrong.

According to your interpretation of Scripture, yes, and boy does that make me happy, lol.

You don't know what you are talking about

As I said, discuss this with someone you will listen to. Perhaps they can help you. I cannot because you are led by your emotion.

Stop acting like you have authority over me I assure you that you do not.

I have the authority of the Word of God, and by that can assure that grace is not by faith.

You have a direct answer.

I do now, yes, lol.

I can't help it if you are unable to see it.

I can now, lol.

You are a Calvinist

You obviously do not know what Calvinists believe. And you obviously have the habit of trying to define people based on your limited understanding. What a shame.

when you object to what scripture clearly says about how to obtain Salvation.

Oh, so that's what makes someone a Calvinist. You should probably let them know. They are under the impression they are Calvinists based on their Doctrine.

If you say you are Arminian

I'm not an Arminian either. If I had to choose one of these two groups, both of which who hold to grossyerroneous doctrine, I would choose Calvinism. At least they understand Eternal Security, and that a bonus for them. Pity they do not understand Regeneration.

believe me there is not much difference.

There is quite a bit of difference, and perhaps one day you might understand why.

You do not believe correctly

As I said, speak to your Pastor, if you have one, and perhaps he/she might be able to help you see who it is that doesn't believe correctly.

Again...did your faith cause God to bestow the gift?


God bless.

 

[MB]

As I said, quote me saying that. That is simplytan erroneous conclusion you have drawn because apparently you are not understanding...even what you are saying. Much less Biblical Doctrine.

I'll post it again. Who knows, they say third time's the charm:



What part of "faith is a result of grace" do you not understand? You even supply the very means by which grace is bestowed to men:




Unfortunately you betray your erroneous doctrine with the first part of the statement:




And again, there we have it, teaching that the direct opposite of what Scripture states:


Ephesians 2:8 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Scripture states it is not of your self, you say it is.




lol



Well, perhaps you ought to talk to someone you will listen to, like perhaps a Pastor. Tell him...





...and see what he says.




Actually you did not, and cannot, because it's not to be found in Scripture. If that were the case it would say "You are saved by faith through grace, and that of yourselves, it's not the gift of God."

That is your position and it is error.




Also erroneous. That's what grace means, lol, God's unmerited favor. It's not something that is earned:


Titus 3:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Saved by grace based on the mercy of God bestowed to sinners. Just a Bible basic.


Continued...

Nope no truth in this post, conversation is over. You just keep on going though you can talk to your self all you want. Your the only person that agrees with you.
MB

 

[Darrell C]

How and when are be justified? Under the Old Covenant and under the New Covenant?

Depends on what justification you are speaking about. If you mean Temporal Justification, then this took place in all Eras/Ages (not just the two you mention).

If you mean Eternal Justification based on the Eternal Redemption Christ accomplished then that is distinct to this current Age, because it did not take place until after Christ died in the stead of the sinner:


Romans 3:21-26 King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


And the fact is no-one, not even the disciples of Christ as they ministered under Him...believed on Him as the Risen Savior. It is at this time that men are by grace freely justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

According to Hebrews 11, the OT Saints obtained approval by faith.

And we could view this "good report" as their Temporal Justification.

But we must keep in miond that a good report, Temporal Justification...does not equate to receiving the promises of God:


Hebrews 11:13 King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40 King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Now when we see the word "faith" we need to read it as meaning "live faith" or "faithful faith" or faith from which faithfulness flows. The faith in view is not dead faith, superficial faith, or lip service faith.

I wouldn't disagree with that.

Recall that God credited Abraham's faith as righteousness,

This is true, so let me ask you a question: was Abraham saved on an eternal basis because of what he did? Or what Christ did? He was justified temporally because he believed God would give him a son but that is not how Abraham was eternally redeemed. Just as these...


Luke 18:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


...were not eternally redeemed because they were declared righteous based on what they did.

thus Abraham's approval was based not on works,

It actually was. He believed. He had faith. He obeyed. He did those things.

He didn't die on a Cross that he might receive the righteousness of Christ. That is the difference. He was justified in a temporal context, not an eternal. If you have not read the OP, please do so, that might make this thread a little more understandable as to what the topic is.

Continued...