Brother Bob
New Member
bump again;
Jack, I think you going to beat me to 1000 posts. ;
Jack, I think you going to beat me to 1000 posts. ;
-
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KEEPING G THE LAW -is not an OPTION!
- Thread starter Claudia_T
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
When God says "Love the Lord with all your heart" Deut 6:5 -- He means it --
When God says "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 -- He means it.
When He gives the Ten commandments Exodus 20 - He means it.
When Christ said pre-cross "IF you love Me KEEP My commandments" He means it as the great I AM of the OT.
When John says the saints "Keep the commandments of God" -- He means it.
In other words - the Gospel is NOT a "call to rebel" against the Law of God! Sinful fallen mankind already does that quite well WITHOUT the Gospel!
In Christ,
Bob
When God says "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 -- He means it.
When He gives the Ten commandments Exodus 20 - He means it.
When Christ said pre-cross "IF you love Me KEEP My commandments" He means it as the great I AM of the OT.
When John says the saints "Keep the commandments of God" -- He means it.
In other words - the Gospel is NOT a "call to rebel" against the Law of God! Sinful fallen mankind already does that quite well WITHOUT the Gospel!
In Christ,
Bob
The End of the Law
To the believer what does Christ become?
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Romans 10:4.
In what sense is the word end (Greek, telos) sometimes used in the Scriptures? Object, intention, or design?
"Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy." James 5:11.
What was the object of the law?
"And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death." Romans 7:10.
What further is the end, or object, of the law?
"Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:" 1 Timothy 1:5.
What is charity, or love?
"Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Romans 13:10. (See also 1 John 5:3).
Why did God send His Son to the world?
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:3,4.
Then what is one enabled to do through Christ?
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4.
Claudia.
The Law was given as a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Gal. 3:24). Anyone that has read Mt. 5:48 must know that, like the rich man in Mt. 19:26, it is impossible to establish any righteousness through the Law (Isa. 64:6).
Paul wrote this about the Law:
"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust." 1 Tim. 1 :8-11
You choose to use the Law in order to establish your own righteousness. Therefore you will be judged by it.
"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Gal. 3:11
"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Gal. 2:21
The Law was given as a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Gal. 3:24). Anyone that has read Mt. 5:48 must know that, like the rich man in Mt. 19:26, it is impossible to establish any righteousness through the Law (Isa. 64:6).
Paul wrote this about the Law:
"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust." 1 Tim. 1 :8-11
You choose to use the Law in order to establish your own righteousness. Therefore you will be judged by it.
"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Gal. 3:11
"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Gal. 2:21
And when Paul wrote "let every man be convinced in his own mind" whether to regard one day above others or every day the same... maybe he didn't mean it? </font>[/QUOTE]Bob.
Of course He meant it. But He never meant for the Ten Commandments to be a way to get to heaven either in full or in part as if keeping them would be a meritorous work toward righteousness.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
When considering God's Word - HIS OWN spoken Ten commandments -- there is an interesting argument on this thread for "do as you please" -- and "everyone do what is right in your own eyes".
By contrast - we find this "in scripture" when it Comes to obeying God's Word.
Yes, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.
Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same
Is it any wonder that Paul writes
God is not "calling for rebellion against His Law" as many Christians today "suppose".
Nor is He "abolishing His law" so that only the lost are guilty of breaking it - but the saved can freely transgress and in fact are commanded not to regard it at all. Rather God declares that the name of God is profaned among the wicked by the breaking of His law among the saints. (in Romans 2)
</font>[/QUOTE]
By contrast - we find this "in scripture" when it Comes to obeying God's Word.
Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”.
Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”. No wonder Paul says --
So lets see. The law will not change in even the minutest way, till heaven and earth pass. Anyone who breaks the law, and teaches others to do so, will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Thinking about committing sin is now just like actually committing the sin. Ah, the law has been magnified. Christ came and fulfilled the law, observing all of it’s commands, even in thought, not just action.
Yes, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.
Christ quotes from the 3rd commandment for the statement above.
Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same
Notice that John promotes this theme not only with his recording the pre-cross statements of Christ the hCreator – but also the post –cross teaching.
Christ condemns those who would break the Commandments of God for the sake of man-made tradition –
Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment after His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)
Why do the Gospel writers take such care to teach us what Christ commanded them?
Notice that John does not try to “divide God” as if God’s commandments are not Christ’s
As for Law and Grace -- Pauls words in Romans 2:13-16 come to mind relative to "justification".
Here the "New Covenant" promise of the "Law written on the heart" is clearly seen.
Is it any wonder that Paul writes
And James 2 tells us to live and act as those "Who are to be judged by God's Law of Liberty".
God is not "calling for rebellion against His Law" as many Christians today "suppose".
Nor is He "abolishing His law" so that only the lost are guilty of breaking it - but the saved can freely transgress and in fact are commanded not to regard it at all. Rather God declares that the name of God is profaned among the wicked by the breaking of His law among the saints. (in Romans 2)
</font>[/QUOTE]
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
There is a pretty interesting discussion here when it comes to God's Own Spoken Ten Commandments - that we should simply "do as we please" instead of thinking of God's Word as "something to obey".
By "contrast" we find this in the Bible
Yes, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.
Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same
Is it any wonder that Paul writes
God is not "calling for rebellion against His Law" as many Christians today "suppose".
Nor is He "abolishing His law" so that only the lost are guilty of breaking it - but the saved can freely transgress and in fact are commanded not to regard it at all. Rather God declares that the name of God is profaned among the wicked by the breaking of His law among the saints. (in Romans 2)
</font>[/QUOTE]
By "contrast" we find this in the Bible
Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”.
Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”. No wonder Paul says --
So lets see. The law will not change in even the minutest way, till heaven and earth pass. Anyone who breaks the law, and teaches others to do so, will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Thinking about committing sin is now just like actually committing the sin. Ah, the law has been magnified. Christ came and fulfilled the law, observing all of it’s commands, even in thought, not just action.
Yes, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.
Christ quotes from the 3rd commandment for the statement above.
Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same
Notice that John promotes this theme not only with his recording the pre-cross statements of Christ the hCreator – but also the post –cross teaching.
Christ condemns those who would break the Commandments of God for the sake of man-made tradition –
Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment after His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)
Why do the Gospel writers take such care to teach us what Christ commanded them?
Notice that John does not try to “divide God” as if God’s commandments are not Christ’s
As for Law and Grace -- Pauls words in Romans 2:13-16 come to mind relative to "justification".
Here the "New Covenant" promise of the "Law written on the heart" is clearly seen.
Is it any wonder that Paul writes
And James 2 tells us to live and act as those "Who are to be judged by God's Law of Liberty".
God is not "calling for rebellion against His Law" as many Christians today "suppose".
Nor is He "abolishing His law" so that only the lost are guilty of breaking it - but the saved can freely transgress and in fact are commanded not to regard it at all. Rather God declares that the name of God is profaned among the wicked by the breaking of His law among the saints. (in Romans 2)
</font>[/QUOTE]
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
There is a pretty interesting discussion here when it comes to God's Own Spoken Ten Commandments - that we should simply "do as we please" instead of thinking of God's Word as "something to obey".
By "contrast" we find this in the Bible
Yes, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.
Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same
Is it any wonder that Paul writes
God is not "calling for rebellion against His Law" as many Christians today "suppose".
Nor is He "abolishing His law" so that only the lost are guilty of breaking it - but the saved can freely transgress and in fact are commanded not to regard it at all. Rather God declares that the name of God is profaned among the wicked by the breaking of His law among the saints. (in Romans 2)
</font>[/QUOTE]
By "contrast" we find this in the Bible
Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”.
Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”. No wonder Paul says --
So lets see. The law will not change in even the minutest way, till heaven and earth pass. Anyone who breaks the law, and teaches others to do so, will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Thinking about committing sin is now just like actually committing the sin. Ah, the law has been magnified. Christ came and fulfilled the law, observing all of it’s commands, even in thought, not just action.
Yes, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.
Christ quotes from the 3rd commandment for the statement above.
Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same
Notice that John promotes this theme not only with his recording the pre-cross statements of Christ the hCreator – but also the post –cross teaching.
Christ condemns those who would break the Commandments of God for the sake of man-made tradition –
Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment after His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)
Why do the Gospel writers take such care to teach us what Christ commanded them?
Notice that John does not try to “divide God” as if God’s commandments are not Christ’s
As for Law and Grace -- Pauls words in Romans 2:13-16 come to mind relative to "justification".
Here the "New Covenant" promise of the "Law written on the heart" is clearly seen.
Is it any wonder that Paul writes
And James 2 tells us to live and act as those "Who are to be judged by God's Law of Liberty".
God is not "calling for rebellion against His Law" as many Christians today "suppose".
Nor is He "abolishing His law" so that only the lost are guilty of breaking it - but the saved can freely transgress and in fact are commanded not to regard it at all. Rather God declares that the name of God is profaned among the wicked by the breaking of His law among the saints. (in Romans 2)
</font>[/QUOTE]
We are expected to not only live out the Law, but keep it perfectly.
However, God knows that not one of us...either before salvation or after...can do it perfectly.
So Christ kept the Law perfectly, never failing in any way, and then imputed that perfect rightiousness and lawkeeping to us, crediting it to our account...
Of course nobody is denying that God law can be a fine moral guide for Gods Spirit born people, but we are in no way UNDER it with its inherant condemnation.
We WERE under it prior to our conversion...but not after.
God bless,
Mike
However, God knows that not one of us...either before salvation or after...can do it perfectly.
So Christ kept the Law perfectly, never failing in any way, and then imputed that perfect rightiousness and lawkeeping to us, crediting it to our account...
The purpose of the Law is to cause us to see the hopelessness of our situation so as to drive us to Christ...
The Law, with its condemnation, is not for Gods people...
Praise God \o/ for making such wonderful provisions for us!
Of course nobody is denying that God law can be a fine moral guide for Gods Spirit born people, but we are in no way UNDER it with its inherant condemnation.
We WERE under it prior to our conversion...but not after.
God bless,
Mike
Bob Ryan...
The biblical way is to walk after the Spirit, and the Holy Spirit will not lead us into lasciviousness but rather into rightiousness
But we hinder that when we go into the old way of lawkeeping....
We are freed from the law. We are freed and delivered into a better way...
Nobody is saying we just "do as we please" or "do what is right in our own eyes"
Nobody living in the goodness of "resurrection life" will be "doing as we please", except in the sense that pleasing God is now what we now want to do.
In that sense, yes...we are "doing as we please", because it pleases us to please God!
God bless,
Mike
Nobody is saying that we "do as we please", Bob.
The biblical way is to walk after the Spirit, and the Holy Spirit will not lead us into lasciviousness but rather into rightiousness
But we hinder that when we go into the old way of lawkeeping....
Not lost again of course, but cut off from the power that is available from the Holy Spirit as we walk in Gods better way.
We are freed from the law. We are freed and delivered into a better way...
You are building a strawman of your own making, and then attacking it.
Nobody is saying we just "do as we please" or "do what is right in our own eyes"
Nobody living in the goodness of "resurrection life" will be "doing as we please", except in the sense that pleasing God is now what we now want to do.
In that sense, yes...we are "doing as we please", because it pleases us to please God!
God bless,
Mike
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
If "God's Word" is His Law.
If "God's Word" is authored by His Spirit - God the Holy Spirit "Holy Men of old moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God"
Then how in the world can we turn from scripture as if doing so is to turn TOWARD the Spirit that authors it?
Wouldn't the Spirit of God lead us TOWARD "scriptura"? Toward His Word? Toward the text of God's written Word?
How can that be "Anti-God"?
When Jesus said Pre-Cross "IF you Love ME KEEP My commandments" did He mean "stop reading the Word of God"? Pre-cross? Post-Cross?
In Christ,
Bob
If "God's Word" is authored by His Spirit - God the Holy Spirit "Holy Men of old moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God"
Then how in the world can we turn from scripture as if doing so is to turn TOWARD the Spirit that authors it?
Wouldn't the Spirit of God lead us TOWARD "scriptura"? Toward His Word? Toward the text of God's written Word?
How can that be "Anti-God"?
When Jesus said Pre-Cross "IF you Love ME KEEP My commandments" did He mean "stop reading the Word of God"? Pre-cross? Post-Cross?
In Christ,
Bob
Mike,
You made the right points!
The question is whether Holy Spirit ask us to keep the Law or not. Whether Holy Spirit work in contradiction to what He said in the Law or not.
What SDA try to keep in terms of Moral Law is not wrong, I believe. What I bother with is when SDA try to combine Sabbath matter with Idol worship and Eschatological Anti-Christ. The Antichrist and the Idol worship will be composed of many matters like Idol worship, Goddess worship, Sexual Immorality, and any other type of Apostasies, and the Sabbath was not given to the Gentiles as we read Acts 15, but if SDA discern it as relating to the Apostasy led by Anti-Christ, it is too much.
If we pay good attention to Holy spirit, looking up to Jesus Christ, then we will accomplish the requirements of the Law without difficulties.
You made the right points!
The question is whether Holy Spirit ask us to keep the Law or not. Whether Holy Spirit work in contradiction to what He said in the Law or not.
What SDA try to keep in terms of Moral Law is not wrong, I believe. What I bother with is when SDA try to combine Sabbath matter with Idol worship and Eschatological Anti-Christ. The Antichrist and the Idol worship will be composed of many matters like Idol worship, Goddess worship, Sexual Immorality, and any other type of Apostasies, and the Sabbath was not given to the Gentiles as we read Acts 15, but if SDA discern it as relating to the Apostasy led by Anti-Christ, it is too much.
If we pay good attention to Holy spirit, looking up to Jesus Christ, then we will accomplish the requirements of the Law without difficulties.
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
The Concern, Bob, is that when people start talking about keeping the law they tend to start adding things to basic salvation...
There is a tendency to take the easy way out and create a list of rules and regulations with which to bind oneself with...
But, the Letter Killeth - The Spirit Gives Life...
How many times has a 'good Christian' ruined another person because the letter of his contract didn't spell out something that was clearly implied in the verbal negotiations?
When we live by the law it's the easy way out...
We can always find loopholes in the written code to allow us to act like heathens...
But, the Higher Law is Love from the Heart...
In fact some renderings of 'If you love me, keep my commandments', have those delineated as the Golden Rule Only because if we truly keep the Golden Rule we will inevitably keep the intent of all the Law and The Prophets and not have to worry about any one man's interpretation of a written code...
*You* can bind yourself up with a written code if you want to...
But, are you better than the Jerusalem Council?
Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Mike Sr.
There is a tendency to take the easy way out and create a list of rules and regulations with which to bind oneself with...
But, the Letter Killeth - The Spirit Gives Life...
How many times has a 'good Christian' ruined another person because the letter of his contract didn't spell out something that was clearly implied in the verbal negotiations?
When we live by the law it's the easy way out...
We can always find loopholes in the written code to allow us to act like heathens...
But, the Higher Law is Love from the Heart...
In fact some renderings of 'If you love me, keep my commandments', have those delineated as the Golden Rule Only because if we truly keep the Golden Rule we will inevitably keep the intent of all the Law and The Prophets and not have to worry about any one man's interpretation of a written code...
*You* can bind yourself up with a written code if you want to...
But, are you better than the Jerusalem Council?
Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Mike Sr.
Bob,
I believe I can keep the commandments by following Holy Spirit.
What kind of clothes do you wear? Are they not woven with Wool and Polyester or Cotton together?
Read Deut 22:11.
I hope you will correct anyting wrong with the doctrines of SDA if you find them contradictory to the Bible teaching as you read Galatians 5:4, 3:11, 3:1-5.
Another point that is missed in these discussion of the commandments, is that God's original universal laws are not the 10 Commandments (of Moses). but rther then Seven commandments of NoahIdolatry: Gen. 31:19-36; Blasphemy: Gen. 3:1-4, Murder: Gen. 4.8-10-16, 6:11, 9:6, Theft: Gen. 3:6, Gen. 31:19, Forbidden sexual relationships: Gen. 19:5-7, 20.3, Establishing courts of justice: Gen. 19:1-9. (The Gates of a city were where Judges sat to convene Courts of Justice), Eating the Limb of a Living Animal: Gen. 9.4-5).
These are pretty much what we see restored in Acts 15.
I believe the traditional, Sundaykeeping church has made a colossal mistake by not recognizing this, and instead pushing the "Ten Commandments" all these years, and then having to clarify "uh, the fourth is changed to Sunday; uh, no, scratch that; the Law is done away with in the NT". That's why we have this debate today.
The Lubavitchers (a more proselytizing sect of the Jews) are starting to hand out tract style literature pushing "The Seven Commandments" for gentiles.
Idolatry: Gen. 31:19-36; Blasphemy: Gen. 3:1-4, Murder: Gen. 4.8-10-16, 6:11, 9:6, Theft: Gen. 3:6, Gen. 31:19, Forbidden sexual relationships: Gen. 19:5-7, 20.3, Establishing courts of justice: Gen. 19:1-9. (The Gates of a city were where Judges sat to convene Courts of Justice), Eating the Limb of a Living Animal: Gen. 9.4-5).These are pretty much what we see restored in Acts 15.
I believe the traditional, Sundaykeeping church has made a colossal mistake by not recognizing this, and instead pushing the "Ten Commandments" all these years, and then having to clarify "uh, the fourth is changed to Sunday; uh, no, scratch that; the Law is done away with in the NT". That's why we have this debate today.
The Lubavitchers (a more proselytizing sect of the Jews) are starting to hand out tract style literature pushing "The Seven Commandments" for gentiles.
SpiritualMadMan,
I really dont see what is so "binding" about "Thou shalt not kill" or "Thou shalt not steal"..
Those are pretty broad terms arent they? Read this and think about whether Jesus was making the Law less binding or whether Jesus was showing that all along the law wasnt so binding after all??
Matthew 12:
1: At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
2: But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3: But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4: How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5: Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
The Pharisees MADE the law binding and a burden to everyone... which is never really was.
Then so many Christians try to "throw off" the law that they imagine to be so burdensome...
Claudia
I really dont see what is so "binding" about "Thou shalt not kill" or "Thou shalt not steal"..
Those are pretty broad terms arent they? Read this and think about whether Jesus was making the Law less binding or whether Jesus was showing that all along the law wasnt so binding after all??
Matthew 12:
1: At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
2: But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3: But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4: How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5: Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
The Pharisees MADE the law binding and a burden to everyone... which is never really was.
Then so many Christians try to "throw off" the law that they imagine to be so burdensome...
Claudia