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KEEPING G THE LAW -is not an OPTION!

Claudia_T

New Member
Originally posted by JackRUS:
Claudia.
The Law was given as a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Gal. 3:24). Anyone that has read Mt. 5:48 must know that, like the rich man in Mt. 19:26, it is impossible to establish any righteousness through the Law (Isa. 64:6).

Paul wrote this about the Law:

"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust." 1 Tim. 1 :8-11

You choose to use the Law in order to establish your own righteousness. Therefore you will be judged by it.

"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Gal. 3:11

"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Gal. 2:21
That just means if you break the law you are under the penalty of it.

Like, if you went out and got a ticket for murdering someone and were thrown in jail... then the judge were merciful enough to let you out, would you think you were free now to go out to murder again because you were "under grace"?


Rom:6:2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


Sin means transgression of the law.

Thats why it says the law is for liars, theives, etc... if you break it you are then under the penalty of it.

If you keep it then you dont have to worry about it.

Now watch this and read carefully, out loud if you have to.. then tell me honestly, is this telling you that you can now break the law of God?

Gal:5:23:

18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


who does it say will not inherit the kingdom of God?

It doesnt really have anything to do with going about trying to establish your own righteousness... it is more like allowing the grace of God to have its desired effect on you.

That is the very OBJECT of Christ's sacrifice for you...


1Jn:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


The Law IS the schoolmaster that points us to Christ, but after the sacrifice of Christ, He points us back to the Law... not to try and gain merit but out of love for Him we keep the law..

there wont be rebellion against God's government in heaven.

Claudia
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by BobRyan:
When Jesus said Pre-Cross "IF you Love ME KEEP My commandments" did He mean "stop reading the Word of God"? Pre-cross? Post-Cross?
Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Bob,
I believe I can keep the commandments by following Holy Spirit.
Hey! We agree on something.


Now how about answering that question?

We have to "start" and this appears to be a pretty simple point from John 14 and the Words of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

so go ahead - take a shot at answering --

did He mean "stop reading the Word of God"? Pre-cross? Post-Cross?
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Here we see the scripture quoting Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ - surely a careful review of each of these is worth reading.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3871/4.html#000048

I am seeing perfect harmony between the PRE-Cross statements of Christ there and the POST cross statements of other NT writers.

No wonder - BOTH texts are written post cross!!

I say we listen to them!!

Why ignore the quotes? These points are made "sola scriptura"!

Wouldn't you agree that the quote from Romand 3 in that link AND the one from Romans 2 are in cmoplete agreement with the quotes from John 14 and Matthew listed in that link?

In Christ,

Bob
 

JackRUS

New Member
Originally posted by Claudia_T:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JackRUS:
Claudia.
The Law was given as a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Gal. 3:24). Anyone that has read Mt. 5:48 must know that, like the rich man in Mt. 19:26, it is impossible to establish any righteousness through the Law (Isa. 64:6).

Paul wrote this about the Law:

"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust." 1 Tim. 1 :8-11

You choose to use the Law in order to establish your own righteousness. Therefore you will be judged by it.

"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Gal. 3:11

"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Gal. 2:21
That just means if you break the law you are under the penalty of it.

Like, if you went out and got a ticket for murdering someone and were thrown in jail... then the judge were merciful enough to let you out, would you think you were free now to go out to murder again because you were "under grace"?


Rom:6:2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


Sin means transgression of the law.

Thats why it says the law is for liars, theives, etc... if you break it you are then under the penalty of it.

If you keep it then you dont have to worry about it.

Now watch this and read carefully, out loud if you have to.. then tell me honestly, is this telling you that you can now break the law of God?

Gal:5:23:

18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


who does it say will not inherit the kingdom of God?

It doesnt really have anything to do with going about trying to establish your own righteousness... it is more like allowing the grace of God to have its desired effect on you.

That is the very OBJECT of Christ's sacrifice for you...


1Jn:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


The Law IS the schoolmaster that points us to Christ, but after the sacrifice of Christ, He points us back to the Law... not to try and gain merit but out of love for Him we keep the law..

there wont be rebellion against God's government in heaven.

Claudia
</font>[/QUOTE]I agree with you. And I must say that I was under the impression that this discussion was about soteriology and not obedience.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your beliefs.

But I would disagree with you on just needing to keep the 10 Commandments. For instance, the book of James has 80 commandments directed toward Christians. And there are many more in the other epistles.
 

Chemnitz

New Member
You dont have to keep those laws anymore, just the ten commandments.
Even those are impossible to keep, hence the continuing need for Christ.
I want to keep them, it is my greatest desire to keep them, but I always fail.

Praise God, He gave me Christ.
thumbs.gif



But I would disagree with you on just needing to keep the 10 Commandments. For instance, the book of James has 80 commandments directed toward Christians. And there are many more in the other epistles.
80 Commandments? Where did you get that? :confused:
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Christ said "IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments" John 14.

Man made tradition says "nothing doin'".

Christ said "Love your neighbor as yourself" James 2, LEv 19:18...

Man made tradition says "Nothin doin' -- not possible".

Christ said "Love the Lord with all your heart" James 2, Deut 6:5

Man made tradition says "Nothin doin' - so forget about it".

Each time the Word is quoted and shows us our role as the people of God - man made tradition simply urges that we "pay no attention".

By Contrast Paul argues that we "ESTABLISH the Law of God" by our faith Rom 3:31 instead of seeking to violate it.

See --

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3871/4.html#000048
 

Claudia_T

New Member
But Guys,


We all know we fail continually in keeping the 10 commandments.

In fact the more we behold Jesus and His perfect life, His complete unselfish love, we see more clearly how much we fall short of His perfect pattern.

But is it not our LOVE, our LOYALTY that God wants, that we love God with all our hearts, minds, souls?

I just think we need to stop viewing things in legalistic terms. We all realize we have to only and always rely on the merits of Jesus Christ, I dont think any of us are advocating relying on our own "righteousness" since we dont have any. Any righteousness we have is a gift from God.

I know all about the righteousness of Christ and His merits. But I just try to bring out the other side of things because Christians today seem to want to obliterate the law, which is wrong.

Claudia
 

Claudia_T

New Member
Jesus is the only one who has pure unadulterated love. Any failure to equal the Pattern is a breaking of the Law, and thus a failure to keep it perfectly.

If we say we have no sin, we dont know what we are talking about. And thats a good indication we have never known God nor seen even a hint of His perfection.

This is what Isaiah said when he beheld the glory of God in the Sanctuary:

Isa:6:5: Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

Yet why does the Bible identify these people as having kept the commandments?


Lk:1:6: And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
 

SpiritualMadMan

New Member
First, this (luke 1:6) was before The Ultimate Sacrifice of Jesus Christ Superceded the Writings of the Law...

Second, this was talking about specific people and calling them Righteous in a way the people of the day could understand...

From your second paragraph, above, it is obvious you agree that it is impossible to literally keep the whole law...

So, it would also be impossible for the parents of John the Baptist to keep the whole law, blameless...

Unless they also religiously kept the Sacrifices as well...

But, we can no longer keep the whole law either...

And, we have but ONE Scarifice for Sin. Jesus Christ the Lamb of God...

The Jerusalem Council made it clear that there was no reason to strap the Gentile Church with a written code that niether they nor their fathers were able to bear (much less keep)...

The semantical issue is the "Have To"...

This makes it in addition to the Sacrifice of Christ... And, Biblically it is Christ Alone our Hope of Glory... Not, Christ and something else...

Now, if you want to talk about God's Love shed abroad in our Hearts and changing our "Want Tos" that's cool...

If you want to talk about being a fruit inspector that's probably OK, too...


But, remember a tree doesn't bear Good fruit on it's own...

It is the Good Life Giving Sap that rises from the Root that gives Good Fruit...

All the branches can be is a conduit of the Life Giving Force...

If you are grafted into the Root of Jesse, Jesus Christ the Righteous, then you will bear Good Fruit...

Lastly, it is not the Branches responsibility to bear Fruit of any kind...

(It's there inherent nature to do so when connected to a Life Giving Source...)

It is the Husbandman who grafts the branch into the root...

It is the Husbandman who properly fertilizes it...

If Jesus is really your Gardener you will bear good fruit...

Mike Sr.
 

Claudia_T

New Member
Spiritual,

What about the fact that in this parable, the lord does all He is supposed to do for the fig tree, but it doesnt bear any fruit...

Apparently the fig tree didnt do something on it's part, what was that?


Luke 13:
: He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7: Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8: And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by D28guy:
We are expected to not only live out the Law, but keep it perfectly.

However, God knows that not one of us...either before salvation or after...can do it perfectly.

So Christ kept the Law perfectly, never failing in any way, and then imputed that perfect rightiousness and lawkeeping to us, crediting it to our account...
Agreed.

We follow Him in obedience according to 1John 2. but that does not mean that we are not sinners in need of salvation and forgiveness.

Rom 3 "we WERE under condemnation of the Law" Rom 3 pre-conversion. After salvation we "by faith ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31. For as we see in Romans 2 it is the "DOERS" anot the "HEARERS only" that enter into "Gospel Justification" Rom 2:11-13.

We WERE under it prior to our conversion...but not after.

God bless,

Mike [/QB]
Only as it pertains to "Condemnation of the Law". Once saved - as you point out in your first quote above - we "AGREE with the Holy Just and True" Law of God for it "IS SPIRITUAL" Rom 7.

"Here is the patience of the saints here are they that..."? (Rev 14)

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
[QB] First, this (luke 1:6) was before The Ultimate Sacrifice of Jesus Christ Superceded the Writings of the Law...
1 - Is it your position that Christ came to "Abolish the Law" no matter what He said to the contrary?

2. - Is it your position that God's Word is NOT Law?

3. - Is it your position that Christ is not really GOD when it comes to the "Scriptures" of the NT saints as they read them day by day?

4. When Christ said "pre-cross" to KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS if you LOVE ME - was he calling for rebellion against scripture??
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Fundamental Baptist Institute
http://www.fbinstitute.com/

presents


THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

BY
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.[b

BINDING TODAY

Some people seem to think we have got beyond the commandments. What did Christ say?
"Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till Heaven and Earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)
The commandments of God given to Moses in the Mount at Horeb are as binding today as ever they have been since the time they were proclaimed in the hearing of the people. The Jews said the law was not given in Palestine (which belonged to Israel), but in the wilderness, because the law was for all nations.

Jesus never condemned the law and the prophets, but He did condemn those who did not obey them. Because He gave new commandments, it does not follow that He abolished the old. Christ's explanation of them made them all the more searching. In His Sermon on the Mount, He carried the principles of the commandments beyond the mere letter. He unfolded them and showed that they embraced more, that they are positive as well as prohibitive. The Old Testament closes with these words:
"Remember ye the Law of Moses My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the Statutes and Judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the Earth with a curse." (Malachi 4:4-6)
Does that look as if the law of Moses was becoming obsolete?

The conviction deepens in me with the years that the old truths of the Bible must be stated and restated in the plainest possible language. I do not remember ever to have heard a sermon preached on the commandments. I have an index of two thousand five hundred sermons preached by Spurgeon, and not one of them selects its text from the first seventeen verses of Exodus 20. The people must be made to understand that the Ten Commandments are still binding, and that there is a penalty attached to their violation. We do not want a gospel of mere sentiment. The Sermon on the Mount did not blot out the Ten Commandments.

When Christ came He condensed the statement of the law into this form:
"Thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength... [and] thy neighbour as thyself." (Mark 12:30,31)
Paul said:
"Love is the fulfilling of the Law." (Romans 13:10)
But does this mean that the detailed precepts of the Decalogue are superseded and have become back numbers? Does a father cease to give children rules to obey because they love him? Does a nation burn its statute books because the people have become patriotic? Not at all. And yet people speak as if the commandments do not hold for Christians because they have come to love God. Paul said:
"Do we then make void the Law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:31)
It still holds good. The Commandments are necessary. So long as we obey, they do not rest heavy upon us; but as soon as we try to break away, we find they are like fences to keep us within bounds. Horses need bridles even after they have been properly broken in.
"We know that the Law is good, if a man use it lawfully; knowing this, that the Law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine." (1 Timothy 1:8-10)
Now, my friend, are you ready to be weighed by this law of God? A great many people say that if they keep the commandments they do not need to be forgiven and saved through Christ. But have you kept them? I will admit that if you perfectly keep the commandments, you do not need to be saved by Christ; but is there a man in the wide world who can truly say that he has done this? Young lady, can you say: "I am ready to be weighed by the law."? Can you, young man? Will you step into the scales and be weighed one by one by the Ten Commandments?

Now face these Ten Commandments honestly and prayerfully. See if your life is right, and if you are treating God fairly. God's statutes are just, are they not? If they are right, let us see if we are right. Let us get alone with God and read His law- read it carefully and prayerfully, and ask Him to forgive us our sin and what He would have us to do.
 

SpiritualMadMan

New Member
I am ~~~~So~~~~~ Scared that I am living contrary to Scripture...

I think I'll go out and buy a Bible College to help me keep up with all the rules and regulations...

Oh ~~~~~ my I am so scared I am going to miss something and go to hell if I don't keep the whole law flawlessly....

Oh~~~~ My~~~~ Oh~~~~ My~~~~~ what shall I do!!!

Have any of you considered how ridiculous it is to preach OSAS and then turn around and preach the keeping of the Law!

I'd expect that of Old School Armenian Pentecostals! But, *never* Baptists... But, then you pro-Law folks aren't really baptists, are you?

If you're Always Saved what difference does it matter if you keep *any* rule, commandment or law?

But, irregadless I will stick with the Spirit for the Spirit Gives Life... The Letter Kills...

One must be careful when wielding the Word as a Weapon... As it was intended to be used as a surgical scapel not a killing weapon... Else why bother to separate bone from marrow?

Mike Sr.
 
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