KEEPING G THE LAW -is not an OPTION!

[D28guy]

Claudia,

"Anyway it is ONLY those who ABIDE IN HIM, and stop their sinning (breaking the Law) that are going to be unashamed at His coming."

Do you mean by that that only those who "stop their sinning" will be saved?

If so...have you "stopped your sinning"?

Be honest. Has Claudia stopped all her sinning?

(And that means sins of the heart. That lustful look. Inappropriate anger. Jealousy. Covetiousness, gossip, etc etc etc.)

And if thats what you mean, then you need to help God out because He's confused.

I just shared the scriptures with you where God speaks to people who are doing lots of sinning...they shouldnt be, but they are...and He calls them "saints" and says that right in the midst of the sinning they are "Light in the Lord", and because of that they should live appropriately.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[Claudia_T]

Mike,

I posted my message about the foolish virgins before you posted your message to me so please go back and read it ok?

Sooooooooooooooo... if we just have to consider ourselves as that we ARE the children of God and you believe in eternal security..

WHAT HAPPENED TO THOSE FOOLISH VIRGINS THEN???

Did they just not REALIZE they were eternally secure or what?

Because from what I read it was because they neglected to put oil in their lamps and thus they failed to give off light to the world that they were lost...

What, do some Christians just not realize their eternal security and thus are lost?

Claudia

 

[D28guy]

Claudia,

I have to go to bed now as Monday is a work day for me.

I respond to your last one later on.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Eric B]

OK, I'll do it for you.
"Oil" represents the Holy Spirit. These are people who professed being in Christ, and visibly appear to be in the Church (hence 'virgins'), but have never really been spiritually converted. And that's even if they may have been outwardly doing good works, as Christ warns elsewhere. That's why they end up lost.

 

[Brother Bob]

(And that means sins of the heart. That lustful look. Inappropriate anger. Jealousy. Covetiousness, gossip, etc etc etc.)

Ok, I see you picked sins of the heart which I agree are bad too but a Question?
If you were in the very act of adultery could you be saved while you were committing the act?

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

I have a question for you who promote the Law...

Actually, it's Paul's Question, not mine...

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

Romans 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

Romans 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

Romans 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

Romans 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

Romans 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.


If you violate any point of the Law you are guilty of All...

As I've shared for altar calls without the Blood of Jesus you are hanging over the lake of fire by a chain...

It doesn't matter which link you break...

Whether it is a small link or a large link...

You are still going to fall to your eternal death...

But, thanks be to God...

I am no long held above the flames by the chain of the law...

In fact I have been removed from the chain entirely and am now held tightly in Jesus' Arms...


The Law remains an instrument of Death not Life...

Jesus *is* the *Only* Source of Life...

You can boast in your keeping of the Law...

For, if break any point, no matter how minor, you are guilty of all and in *NO* position to lecture anyone else about keeping or not keeping the law...


Paul's writings remain clear as crystal, you can not live under both Grace and Law...

You have to make a choice to fully rely on Christ or rely on the Law in your own strength...

Mike Sr.

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by D28guy:
Claudia,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Anyway it is ONLY those who ABIDE IN HIM, and stop their sinning (breaking the Law) that are going to be unashamed at His coming."

Do you mean by that that only those who "stop their sinning" will be saved?

If so...have you "stopped your sinning"?

Be honest. Has Claudia stopped all her sinning?

(And that means sins of the heart. That lustful look. Inappropriate anger. Jealousy. Covetiousness, gossip, etc etc etc.)

And if thats what you mean, then you need to help God out because He's confused.

I just shared the scriptures with you where God speaks to people who are doing lots of sinning...they shouldnt be, but they are...and He calls them "saints" and says that right in the midst of the sinning they are "Light in the Lord", and because of that they should live appropriately.

Grace and peace,

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Oh agony! Now I have to explain this all again, what I have tried to explain over and over again.

When I say people have to stop their sinning, well first of all the Bible DOES DOES DOES SAY THIS:


1Jn:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jn:3:10: In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

And so dont we have to give these verses their appropriate due? We cannot just dismiss them, right?

The Bible plain says that if we do not do righteousness then we are NOT of God... and that if we sin, we are children of the devil, right??

I didnt just dream that up because I am some kind of a legalist, right?

Okay now here is the way I view that entire subject... maybe Im wrong but it is what I gather from my Bible studies...

I believe God is looking for our love and our loyalty. Those two things... Thou shalt love thy God with all thy heart.

He wants us to cease from our rebellion. And I already said I know we will fall and fail.

We will grow, sanctification is a lifelong process.

We have to WANT to serve God and to live for His glory. We have to WANT to love our brethren and everyone else besides that.

I believe when God sees it is in the heart to obey and we put forth efforts (yes I actually said we have to have some effort, thus "strive" to enter the narrow way) ...then God will bless us and accept us.

I do NOT believe that we can just continue on in our sins as we did before in our former life and expect salvation.

That is what I mean by "stopping sinning".

Thats exactly why the Bible says this:


1Jn:2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

God tells us, little children DO NOT SIN... then he includes, but if we DO sin, we have an Advocate, Jesus

and thats EXACTLY what I am saying also.


Claudia

[ May 08, 2006, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

 

[Claudia_T]

and just to emphasize, when you asked me:

"Do you mean by that that only those who "stop their sinning" will be saved?"

my answer is YES YES YES

thats exactly what I mean


because I dont think there are going to be any "children of the devil" in heaven!

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by Eric B:
OK, I'll do it for you.
"Oil" represents the Holy Spirit. These are people who professed being in Christ, and visibly appear to be in the Church (hence 'virgins'), but have never really been spiritually converted. And that's even if they may have been outwardly doing good works, as Christ warns elsewhere. That's why they end up lost.

I agree with you Eric. The Oil is the Holy Spirit.


Zech:4:
6: Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
12: And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?


And lots of people are doing good works so to speak but are not really converted. You can do good works for lots of different reasons other than the right ones. Such as trying to impress others, trying to avoid going to hell, trying to earn merit...

They never received the Holy Spirit and they never died to self. Thus they do good works "to be seen of men"... or out of self centered reasons.

And they dont really give off any light from their lamps to light the way for others. They dont reflect God's character to the world.


And let me just include this too...

I am of the opinion that if we in any way rely upon our own merits or try to do good works to somehow "earn" salvation, then we are just as self centered as the worst sinner. The Pharisees were always doing outwardly good things thinking that by doing them they were earning brownie points with God.

Thats SELFISH. We must be rid of self... self must die. Paul said "I die daily".

Our motivation in doing good works cannot be to try to earn heaven.

Jn:12:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.


and we have to realize there is no amount of good works we could do to improve upon the sacrifice of Christ for our sins.

Self must die BOTH WAYS. We cannot hang onto our sins and expect to be saved, neither can we try to do good works to merit salvation. Both things are self centered and deplorable to God.

Claudia

 

[tamborine lady]

Gekko said:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from Tam:
"The ten commandments were written to Israel

They were Gods people at the time.

Now, we are Gods people."

Then Gekko answered:

i would agree with that in a sense...
but looks to me like you are insinuating that Israel is no longer God's people and that they have no use anymore...

am i mistaken?

************************************

Tam says, yes, you are mistaken! Stop trying to make trouble.

The Jewish people are still Gods people.

We are now Gods people also.

We both need to follow Gods rules.

(The 10 Commandments)

Peace,

Tam

 

[Brother Bob]

SMM;
That supports the law not do away with it.

Just one example;

Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

None of you have giving an answer if you can be saved while in the act of adultery?

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:


None of you have giving an answer if you can be saved while in the act of adultery?

Bob,

I believe this same principle applies today...if we decide to turn away from God with no repentence, then this is what happens:

Ezekiel 18:
24: But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25: Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

I disgaree Bob,

It shows the utter nonesense of trying to keep the law...

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I reiterate my earlier point...

If you violate any point of the Law you are guilty of All...

As I've shared for altar calls without the Blood of Jesus you are hanging over the lake of fire by a chain...

It doesn't matter which link you break...

Whether it is a small link or a large link...

You are still going to fall to your eternal death...

AS for your question...

It is _NOT_ my decision nor yours...

1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

The Law would condemn them both without Mercy...

But, Grace may yet find a way...

Law or Grace the choice is yours...

Mike Sr.

 

[Bible-boy]

So physical life and death (that is what the Ezekiel 18 passage is talking about) somehow equates to salvation and/or loss thereof?

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

BB,

Even me, as an Armenian, wouldn't make that connection!~

But, that's the whole problem with trying to live under the Law...

It negates Grace...

Consider the Woman caught in the very act of adultery...

The men were gathered to stone her without mercy according to the Law...

(Gotta wonder where the man she was caught with was at? But, that just goes to show that those that spout the Law don't always apply it equally or fairly.)

But, Jesus, extended Grace and Mercy to Her...

The Law offered ONLY Death in both realms...

Grace offered Life in both realms...

Without Grace then Loss of salvation becomes all too common and easy to happen...

But, with Grace losing ones salvation is, IMHO, something that would require long term concerted effort...

As for me I'll take Grace!

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by Bible-boy:
So physical life and death (that is what the Ezekiel 18 passage is talking about) somehow equates to salvation and/or loss thereof?

Bible Boy,


Here is the very end of that passage from Ezekiel 18:
30: Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31: Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32: For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.


Why would you think it isnt referring to your salvation?

Everybody dies the natural death.

 

[Claudia_T]

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

Romans 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

Romans 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

Romans 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

Romans 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

Romans 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.


all this is saying is that these people were doing exactly like the Pharisees mentioned by Jesus in Matthew chapter 5

19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

27: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

they were boasting in the law yet breaking it, thereby dishonoring God in the eyes of those who looked to them as an example of righteousness. But notice Jesus didnt say "dont teach it"... NO He said teach it AND live it. He said those who teach that you can break the law would be called least in the kingdm of heaven.


The Lord looks at the heart, instead of the outward appearance. 1 Sam. 16:7.

some might preach thou shalt not steal yet be robbing God in tithes and offerings...

some might preach thou shalt not kill yet hate their brother...

some might preach thou shalt not worship idols yet put many things above God in their lives...

and so on.
Claudia

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

I am exceedingly Thankful for the Grace and Mercy of God that has finally brought us to Page Ten and the soon closure of this thread!

Claudia, you have repeatedly attempted to instruct us in the Law...

Are you blameless according to the Law?

If not, then as Paul says you are not competent to teach us anything about the Law...

You really can't see the forrest for the trees can you?

If you really want to put us under the Law...

Then we reserve the same privildedge to place you under the same restrictions and scrutiny...

We will stop extending Grace and we will begin to apply the Law as best we can understand it...

And, when we find a flaw we will deal with you in the exact same Merciless manner that the men were about to deal with the woman caught in adultery...

So, think very carefully...

You who espouse a keeping of the Law...

Remember, I am an Armenian by Faith Birthright. A Melancholoy Legalist at heart...

And, trust me if you *really* want to be backed up against the Law I believe I can accomodate you...

But, you won't like me as an Armenian Legalist...

Mike Sr.

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:

Claudia, you have repeatedly attempted to instruct us in the Law...

Are you blameless according to the Law?

If not, then as Paul says you are not competent to teach us anything about the Law...

You really can't see the forrest for the trees can you?

Well was John blameless? He seemed to have taught the same view I have... and I wouldnt want to not know God, be a liar, or not abide in Him:


1Jn:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn:3:22: And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn:3:24: And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

No of course I am not blameess.

However, I would rather be among the second group of this than the first:

Mt:5:19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Who do you suppose Jesus is speaking about who are teaching the commandments and called great in heaven if you have to be blameless to teach it?

 

[Claudia_T]

Mike,

You seem awfully antagonistic. I dont know why this topic seems to make you so uncomfortable.

Claudia