No , He cannot change Himself in his Deity attrubutes at all!
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Kenosis and divine attributes
- Thread starter AresMan
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Yes it is difficult indeed to "wrap" one's head around the kenosis subject.
IMO, our biggest difficulty is comprehending the reality of eternal God interjecting Himself in mortal flesh into the time continuum we are bound within.
Verb tenses and prepositions especially suffer in our feeble attempt to put the toothpaste (time) back into the tube called eternity.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
HankD
If you mean by "actually and legitimately" a man ~ MEANING Jesus "actually" didn't exist, and then did exist because a male and female human copulated and a male human sperm/seed fertilized a female egg thus procreated a human OF the dust of a pre-created element called earth..... uh no.
I do believe that is HOW human men OF the dust of the earth are procreated, and their bodies are formed by God.
I do not believe Jesus was ever NON-existing.
I do not believe Jesus was procreated from the corrupt seed of a human man.
I do not believe Jesus' body came from the dust or returned to the dust.
I do believe Scripture ~ that Jesus' "body" was prepared for WHEN He came into "THIS" world and that body He "took upon Himself" was made in the "likeness" of mankind.
Phil.2
- [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
IS Bruce Jenner a WOMAN, because he calls himself one, because others call him a woman, because he took upon himself the form of a woman? No. He is a man.
Same with Chasity Bono, who calls herself a man, because she took upon herself the look of a man. Is she a man? No. She is a woman.
Jesus took upon himself the "seed of Abraham". Does that mean Jesus was born from Abraham's corrupt human sperm/seed? No. It reveals a "holy" HUMAN line of men would be prepared from which Jesus would be revealed. A "holy" HUMAN line of men? Yes. And what is that? The same as it is today. A man WHO is faithful and submitted to the LORD, receives the Seed of God, which is holy and re- births the mans spirit to be holy and acceptable unto the Lord, to keep life forever for that man.
Were ALL of Abraham's stock (human sperm seed) descendants "born again"? No.
However a direct line from Adam to Abraham to Mary were faithful to God and received the same as any man today who is faithful to God by His Word ~ which is a forgiven body of flesh, a sanctified body of flesh, a restored soul and a born again spirit by the Seed of God ~ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God.
God does not change. Jesus does not change. Jesus is thee everlasting, ever existing Christ the Lord.
He was not EVER created, and certainly NOT created from Dust of the Earth, as Human earthly men are.
How God chose to INTRODUCE Himself to mankind, was at His pleasure and way.
Do you think God is an Angel, because He revealed Himself as a Angel? Or that God is a Dove because a Dove sat on Jesus' shoulder? Or that God is burning bush, because Gods voice was revealed from a burning bush?
God is TOO HOLY to have His holiness compromised by communicating with CORRUPT mankind. What measures He devises to COVER Himself SO HE CAN communicate with mankind, is according to His pleasure and His devices and His order and His way.
Not according to Scripture.
John.6
- [51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
He offered His prepared flesh body.
What about His Soul?
What about His Spirit?
He did not come to sacrifice His Soul or His Spirit for mankinds corrupt flesh body.
He DID come to give His Pure Holy Flesh Body for mankinds Corrupt Flesh Body.
Heb.10
- [5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
You have a definition of deity that demands certain attributes be present at all times. You hold it more dearly than the scripture.
What do you do when you read that Jesus could not perform many miracles in some places (Mark 6:5) or that He did not know the date or hour of His return (Mark 13:32). Your view cannot easily account for those and many other passages without doing gymnastics to explain it away. You also ignore Jesus' teaching about his lack of ability to do anything outside of the Father's guidance.
You need to take some time and read through all four Gospels carefully and not how Jesus conducted His ministry.
That is not the same as saying that the Son set aside his omnipotence.
I think the quote from John 5:19-21 is especially interesting, where you see this text as saying the Son set aside his omnipotence I see as saying quite the opposite:
John 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. (NKJ)
Jesus declares that he (the son) gives life to whom he will! The antecedent of 'He', is 'Son,' Jesus is speaking about his own power.
Now, a further question needs to be asked - namely, is Jesus talking about the incarnation here, or his eternal relationship to the father, note, for example, v22, and ask yourself when will that judgement take place - was it in the incarnation or is it something that is still awaited?
Jesus Christ is talking about eternal realities of his relationship with the father - to suggest that he is saying he is not omnipotent is to say that the Son has never possessed that attribute (namely that he isn't God).
moving on:
John 5:30 "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me." ( NKJ)
You might have case here, but for the fact that this is still the same 'lesson' that contains v21 in which Jesus Christ declares the omnipotence of the son.
John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29 "And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him."
Jesus doesn't say, 'I can do' he says 'I do nothing' - this is not a text speaking to ability. Further more the context is teaching.
So, we repeat my assertion, if the biblical truth is that the Son surrendered his omnipotence it would be all over scripture and we would need to play fast and loose with the text to find support for it.
Agreed, yet he 'saw' Nathanael in a way that caused Nathanael to acknowledge that Jesus was the messiah, (John 1:48-49) - I find it interesting that everyone who opposes me keeps skipping over that particular text!
My freind, it is not as simple as you seem to be making out
This is relation to my statement that omniscience and omnipotence are essential attributes of deity - and as for the scriptural assertion - here goes:
Omnipotence - consider how often God introduces himself as the 'almighty' (Gen 17:1; 35:11 etc) - it seems to me that God himself believes that his power is intrinsic to his nature
Omniscience - 1 Sam 2:3 tells is that God is all knowing
Can you demonstrate that this is the 'only essential attribute of deity' from scripture? By that, I mean to ask, can you the same standard to your own theology that you demand of mine?
Now, in regards to John 5:26-27, Jesus is talking about the Son, it seems to me that to suggest this is a truth restricted to the incarnation is to sell it short
[quoteJesus ministered in tandem with the Father and the Spirit and things were revealed to Him. Furthermore, Jesus was not omnipresent. He was specifically tied to His human body.[/QUOTE]
Tandem is to work as a pair, one behind the other, hence 'tandem bike' however that is by the by
I am not denying that in the work of Jesus Christ did not involve the Father or the Spirit - i don't know where that idea came from?
However, again, I am asking you to meet the same standard of evidence that you demand of me, can you supply support from scripture for the assertion that Jesus was not omnipresent - especially in the light of John 1:43-51?
No, I don't believe that heresy and you are wrong to even suggest it.
That's great. No one suggested you did, although I think you are insinuating that heresy on me.
I think everyone here believes scripture.
You are placing variant English meanings of translated prooftexts to twist scripture to your liking. You need to look at the context of all of the New Testament, not just items plucked out of context.
If through a special creation of God I am incarnated as a gorilla, then I would be fully gorilla.
Right, because he has not been incarnated into a woman by a special creation of God.
This is a strange line of argument.
Yes, obviously.
Sounds like you are making the case for the heresy of Docetism.
Jesus was born from a descendant of Abraham (Mary) and Jesus had her DNA in His system. He was incarnated by the special creative act of the virgin birth.
You also seem to believe in a line of humanity that does not bear the taint of sin that was somehow necessary for the birth of Jesus. That's odd.
God's character does not change. But God acts, and that is a type of change.
Jesus' character does not change, but He was incarnated, died in a cross, was raised from the dead in a glorified body, eventually ascended into a place of honor in the heavens, and is active today. That is certainly quite a bit of action and change.
Yes.
No one here said He was.
[/quote]...and certainly NOT created from Dust of the Earth, as Human earthly men are.[/quote]
HE ABSOLUTELY WAS. To deny that Jesus has come in the flesh is of antichrist.
Except that He has, from the Garden to today.
You are denying one of the most important teachings of scripture in your zeal to uphold Docetism.
On and on they p;ost denial of scripture. Did you see the grammar claim where they say the traditional translation of Philippians 2:7 should read "Christ did not really empty Himself by taking on human form." LOL
Does the text (Philippians 2:7) say He emptied Himself by taking on human form? Nope, the "by" is an interpretive addition. OTOH, not wanting to grasp equality with God He emptied Himself. So setting aside part of His divine attributes does not mean was was not 100% God, because He was.
So what we have here is an effort to nullify scripture, either to say He did not empty Himself or that after taking on the form of man, He remained 100% God. And other scriptures teach us His knowledge was limited, His power was limited and His presence was limited.
Stick to scripture folks, and reject the nullifiers.
Does the text (Philippians 2:7) say He emptied Himself by taking on human form? Nope, the "by" is an interpretive addition. OTOH, not wanting to grasp equality with God He emptied Himself. So setting aside part of His divine attributes does not mean was was not 100% God, because He was.
So what we have here is an effort to nullify scripture, either to say He did not empty Himself or that after taking on the form of man, He remained 100% God. And other scriptures teach us His knowledge was limited, His power was limited and His presence was limited.
Stick to scripture folks, and reject the nullifiers.
That was all due to His humanity, but as God, he still could have chosen to exercise any of the attrubutes that he still had!
Only through the Father while here on earth
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
HankD
You said "actually and legitimately" a man. So you define what you mean by "actually and legitimately" a man. Because Scripture notifies us man KIND is dust of the earth!
You telling me what you generally think is of no consequence. Be specific. If I say something, you disagree with, quote me and announce you disagree with something specific.
No, that was an example of a man "taking something upon himself", trying to show you, it does not CHANGE the man from being a man.
And no you could not become an incarnated gorilla.
Incarnate IS God taking upon Himself a Human form - exactly what Scripture teaches Jesus did.
And other scripture notifies you God does NOT CHANGE. He does not become the created. He does not become a Human. Jesus does not CHANGE, regardless of what mankind saw.
Mal 3
[6] For I am the LORD, I change not;
Heb.13
- [8] Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Humans do not become "incarnated".
It's not an argument. God established what men would call things, and then used those things common to a man to teach about Himself to babes.
Who was LIKE the Son of God, that tells us what the Son of God is LIKE?
Heb.7
- [3] Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Deut 32
[6] Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?
So WHY is God IN Heaven called Jesus' Father. God declared it knowing He was sending His Word in the LIKENESS as a man.
Heb.1
- [5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And? Does God HAVE a Father? Heb 7 tells you No.
So IF you have the knowledge AND understanding that God has no Father, no beginning, no ending, and Christ IS God......what does it matter what FORM he took upon Himself?
It matters BECAUSE God MUST fulfill to mankind what He has said mankind would observe.
king Davids "throne" is an everlasting "throne" which shall be occupied by thee King of the earth who is God Himself. Who can occupy king David's throne, who is satisfactory among Jews, but a Jew himself, connected to king David's lineage? And why scripture teaches it was necessary (behoved) Jesus to come to earth AS a Jew.
Heb 2
[16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
[17] Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Sounds like you are having trouble with trusting God prepared a body in the likeness as a man, for when His Word came into the world, as scripture teaches.
You should WELL know HUMANS come from Human male seeds fertilizing a HUMAN female egg.
Jesus came from HEAVEN. NOT from a Human sperm or a Human egg. Mary's "DNA", pfft. Scripture says no such thing. Mankinds sperm and mankinds egg had ZERO to do with Jesus, ie Gods Word being manifested in the LIKENESS as a man, and scripture teaches you Jesus came forth out from God, called born of God......NOT because of blood or flesh or mankind.
John.1
- [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Psychobabble.
Redefining scripture and irrelevant. God does not change period.
The body prepared of God that Gods Word took upon Himself, for WHEN HE came into the world, was precisely to be given for the LIFE of the world; WAS Gods decision, plan and THAT plan executed.
Jesus "the Word of God", does not change. His body was ALWAYS glorious. Men SAW the prepared body He "took upon Himself". WHEN Jesus returns to the clouds, calls up His Church members and changes HIS Church members dead bodies into Heavenly Bodies, THEN shall those Church members, SEE Jesus, AS HE IS.
1John.3
- [2] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
[/quote]...and certainly NOT created from Dust of the Earth, as Human earthly men are.[/quote]
Hogwash.
John.1
- [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
So? Who said that? I didn't.
Be precise on your charges - quote me saying I have denied something.
And reveal the Scripture that says Jesus was "absolutely created from dust of the earth", as you claim.
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True. And what did the Father do of Himself WITHOUT His Word?
The truth is; the Son, Lord, (Word); God in Heaven, (Father); Almighty, Spirit, (Power) ALWAYS are one with the other and TOGETHER made and created all things.
Gen.1
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
With What?
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Word that came forth out of His mouth)
We learn, a name to call His Word.
We learn, a name to call God.
We learn, a name to call His Power.
We learn, they are ONE - Lord God Almighty
Rev.11
- [17] Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. Isa 11:1-4
“how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. Acts 19:38
Did he self anoint himself?
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? Matt 22:41-44
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
And the Word was made flesh,
How?
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake (?the Word?) in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken (?the Word made flesh?) unto us by his Son, (?the Word?) whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds (ages); Heb 1:1,2
But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[fn] of a woman, born under the law,
Matt.1
- [23] Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. V 21
Jesus of Nazareth, the human incarnation of the Son was conceived in the womb of Mary. The Son, the Second Person if the Trinity, is eternal.
Jesus was virginally conceived. The how of that we are not completely sure, but I surmise that the Holy Spirit supernaturally created chromosomes and other necessary genetic material to fertilize one of Mary's eggs. Jesus is clearly "the seed of the woman."
Gen 3:25 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Other than the miracle of the virgin birth and supernaturally created genetic material, Jesus of Nazareth was just as human as we are--every bit of the human nature--yet without sin.
When Jesus performed the miracle of the loaves and fishes, did he not fill the baskets with bread and fish?
The Son is eternal. Jesus of Nazareth, the incarnation of the Son began in the womb of Mary. He is the God-Man, the eternal divine Person of the Son with two full natures.
Jesus' favorite term for Himself was "Son of Man" pointing to the fact that He is the incarnate deity.
He wasn't formed from the sexual union of Mary and Joseph, but He was still fully human.
Mar 12
35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?
36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
Jesus was not denying that He really is the Son of David, but rather that He is both the human offspring of David (through Mary) and his Lord (God).
Rom 1
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
He was clearly "made of the seed of David according to the flesh."
Mat 1
1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Well, obviously He didn't "return to the dust." He rose from the dead, His flesh did not see decay, and He now has a glorified body.
Phi 2
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
If the "form of God" (morphe theou) means the definitive nature of God, then the "form of a servant" (morphen doulou) is the definitive nature of humanity. This is a necessary parallel.
*sigh*
Gal 3:
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
The promise to Abraham was that of a literal seed--one seed--Christ. Christ is a physical descendant of Abraham. We become the "seed of Abraham" according to the promise covenantally by being "in Christ" by faith, but Christ is the heir to whom the promises were made who physically drscended from Abraham.
Yes, God does not change, which is why I believe the orthodox doctrine of the Hypostatic Union. Jesus of Nazareth is the incarnation of the eternal Son of God who had two distinct natures--divine and human. The incarnation is not a change to the being of God.
However, the human nature of Jesus of Nazareth began in the womb of Mary.
You are denying the uniqueness of the incarnation of Jesus of Nazareth. Any theophanies in the Old Testament are not the same as the incarnation of the God-Man.
More gnostic Docetist heresy. Flesh is not inherently evil. Adam and Eve were innocent before the Fall. Jesus had a full human nature through a virgin conception yet without sin.
Heb 2
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part [partook] of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on himthe seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertainingto God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
He could not be a substitute for humans if He Himself were not also fully human.
You are reading way too much into "body" here. That is the same silly hermeneutic that allowed Joseph Smith to interpret "flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom" to mean that resurrected gods would need a body of flesh and bone but no blood. Yes, Jesus gave His life on Calvary, which would mean a body in the tomv that would rise. However, Jesus wasn't just a divine spirit inhabiting a human "corpse" or something like one, He is has two complete natures--divine and human.
More fake theology, because Paul and John wrote it all down and we can read it to this day, more than 2000 years later.
Did the second person of the trinity empty Himself? Yes.
Did Jesus have to wait until He returned to Heaven to send the Helper? Yes
In Christ did all the fullness of deity dwell in bodily form? Yes
Pay no attention to those who seek to nullify scripture to support man-made doctrine.
Yes, as there are 3 Persons who make up GodHead, father/Jesus/Holy Spirit!
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