Kenosis and divine attributes

[Yeshua1]

More fake theology, because Paul and John wrote it all down and we can read it to this day, more than 2000 years later.
Did the second person of the trinity empty Himself? Yes.
Did Jesus have to wait until He returned to Heaven to send the Helper? Yes
In Christ did all the fullness of deity dwell in bodily form? Yes

Pay no attention to those who seek to nullify scripture to support man-made doctrine.

You mean that Jesus actually no longer had all of His divine attrubutes while earth?

 

[AresMan]

Did the second person of the trinity empty Himself? Yes.
Did Jesus have to wait until He returned to Heaven to send the Helper? Yes
In Christ did all the fullness of deity dwell in bodily form? Yes

None of this poses a problem to the orthodox doctrine of the Hypostatic Union.

Now, do adverbs modify verbs?

 

[Happy]

Jesus of Nazareth, the human incarnation of the Son was conceived in the womb of Mary. The Son, the Second Person if the Trinity, is eternal.
Jesus was virginally conceived. The how of that we are not completely sure, but I surmise that the Holy Spirit supernaturally created chromosomes and other necessary genetic material to fertilize one of Mary's eggs. Jesus is clearly "the seed of the woman."

Gen 3:25 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Other than the miracle of the virgin birth and supernaturally created genetic material, Jesus of Nazareth was just as human as we are--every bit of the human nature--yet without sin.

When Jesus performed the miracle of the loaves and fishes, did he not fill the baskets with bread and fish?

The Son is eternal. Jesus of Nazareth, the incarnation of the Son began in the womb of Mary. He is the God-Man, the eternal divine Person of the Son with two full natures.

Jesus' favorite term for Himself was "Son of Man" pointing to the fact that He is the incarnate deity.

He wasn't formed from the sexual union of Mary and Joseph, but He was still fully human.

Mar 12
35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?
36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

Jesus was not denying that He really is the Son of David, but rather that He is both the human offspring of David (through Mary) and his Lord (God).

Rom 1
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

He was clearly "made of the seed of David according to the flesh."

Mat 1
1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Well, obviously He didn't "return to the dust." He rose from the dead, His flesh did not see decay, and He now has a glorified body.


Phi 2
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

If the "form of God" (morphe theou) means the definitive nature of God, then the "form of a servant" (morphen doulou) is the definitive nature of humanity. This is a necessary parallel.

*sigh*

Gal 3:
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The promise to Abraham was that of a literal seed--one seed--Christ. Christ is a physical descendant of Abraham. We become the "seed of Abraham" according to the promise covenantally by being "in Christ" by faith, but Christ is the heir to whom the promises were made who physically drscended from Abraham.

Yes, God does not change, which is why I believe the orthodox doctrine of the Hypostatic Union. Jesus of Nazareth is the incarnation of the eternal Son of God who had two distinct natures--divine and human. The incarnation is not a change to the being of God.
However, the human nature of Jesus of Nazareth began in the womb of Mary.


You are denying the uniqueness of the incarnation of Jesus of Nazareth. Any theophanies in the Old Testament are not the same as the incarnation of the God-Man.

More gnostic Docetist heresy. Flesh is not inherently evil. Adam and Eve were innocent before the Fall. Jesus had a full human nature through a virgin conception yet without sin.

Heb 2
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part [partook] of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on himthe seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertainingto God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

He could not be a substitute for humans if He Himself were not also fully human.

You are reading way too much into "body" here. That is the same silly hermeneutic that allowed Joseph Smith to interpret "flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom" to mean that resurrected gods would need a body of flesh and bone but no blood. Yes, Jesus gave His life on Calvary, which would mean a body in the tomv that would rise. However, Jesus wasn't just a divine spirit inhabiting a human "corpse" or something like one, He is has two complete natures--divine and human.

You are giving too much carnal understanding, when it is Gods understanding He desires us to receive.

 

[Yeshua1]

More fake theology, because Paul and John wrote it all down and we can read it to this day, more than 2000 years later.
Did the second person of the trinity empty Himself? Yes.
Did Jesus have to wait until He returned to Heaven to send the Helper? Yes
In Christ did all the fullness of deity dwell in bodily form? Yes

Pay no attention to those who seek to nullify scripture to support man-made doctrine.

was Jesus limited at all in His Deity?

 

[percho]

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. V 21

To Happy and all who care.

V 20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Jesus to whom she gave birth and who was conceived in her by the Holy Spirit was God in the flesh. Jesus was and is God in the flesh.

Questions.

Could the Holy Spirit, God, of whom Jesus was conceived in her, die?
Could the one conceived in her, and brought forth of her, Jesus the Christ, the Son of the living God, die?

In eternity past, how could God die, for the purpose of destroying the devil and his works, the sinner from the beginning, yet remain the eternal God?

Why not create a man in my image, subject him to, the death, take woman from the man and in the fullness of time, send forth the Son of God, born of her, with the promise of God, the hope of eternal life, who can give his sinless life, that is be the obedience of faith, and therefore receive the promise, eternal life, thus destroying the devil and his works, and redeeming the man subjected to, the death, the power of the devil?

Sounds like a plan, to me.

 

[AresMan]

You are giving too much carnal understanding, when it is Gods understanding He desires us to receive.

Does "God's understanding" comply with His own written Word? Was Jesus both David's Lord and David's son as He Himself said?

 

[AresMan]

"Happy," what is the point of the geneaologies of Jesus in Mat 1 and Luk 3?

 

[Yeshua1]

None of this poses a problem to the orthodox doctrine of the Hypostatic Union.

Now, do adverbs modify verbs?

If we say that Jesus was somehow limited in his divine natures, then he would cease to be God during that time!

 

[Van]

None of this poses a problem to the orthodox doctrine of the Hypostatic Union.

Now, do adverbs modify verbs?

The HP simply says Jesus was 100% God and 100% Man. End of story.

Next, you can claim scripture does not say Jesus emptied Himself till the cows come home. Your rewrite is not supported by the NASB, LEB, ESV, NET, YLT and WEB.

 

[Van]

was Jesus limited at all in His Deity?

Of course not, in Christ all the fullness of deity dwelt in human form.

When I was young, I was a pretty good ping pong player. Almost nobody I played offered any challenge. So I started playing left handed. (I am right handed.) Did that make me any less Van? Of course not. Could I choose to switch hands and use all my expertise? Yes.

The argument that if God elects to not use some of His attributes while incarnate makes Him less than 100% God is ludicrous.

 

[Happy]

"Happy," what is the point of the geneaologies of Jesus in Mat 1 and Luk 3?

Jesus came to do many things, including but not limited to fulfilling LAWS, which include but are not limited to "mans law and laws of nature".

It was necessary for Jesus to be "lawfully, according to mans law; be born of a Jewish woman".
David was a Jew. David was king and sat upon an everlasting throne. According to Jewish Law, ONLY, a Jew can "again" sit upon king Davids throne and be "king" of the Jews. Jesus accomplished being a Jew, when via the Holy Spirit, He came down from Heaven and entered Mary's virgin womb, to be revealed to the world, as a Jew.

The "genealogy" records taken primarily from Roman census records and Jewish Temple records would satisfy both Jews and Gentiles of Jesus' "earthly" law fulfillment of his Jewish roots and beyond to the Hebrews.

Jesus also fulfilled the LAW of nature; to be in a womb for 9 months and then revealed born of that woman, just as scripture teaches, He was born of Mary, according to the Law.

 

[AresMan]

Jesus came to do many things, including but not limited to fulfilling LAWS, which include but are not limited to "mans law and laws of nature".

It was necessary for Jesus to be "lawfully, according to mans law; be born of a Jewish woman".
David was a Jew. David was king and sat upon an everlasting throne. According to Jewish Law, ONLY, a Jew can "again" sit upon king Davids throne and be "king" of the Jews. Jesus accomplished being a Jew, when via the Holy Spirit, He came down from Heaven and entered Mary's virgin womb, to be revealed to the world, as a Jew.

The "genealogy" records taken primarily from Roman census records and Jewish Temple records would satisfy both Jews and Gentiles of Jesus' "earthly" law fulfillment of his Jewish roots and beyond to the Hebrews.

Jesus also fulfilled the LAW of nature; to be in a womb for 9 months and then revealed born of that woman, just as scripture teaches, He was born of Mary, according to the Law.

Was Jesus biologically a descendant of David through Mary?

 

[AresMan]

Of course not, in Christ all the fullness of deity dwelt in human form.

When I was young, I was a pretty good ping pong player. Almost nobody I played offered any challenge. So I started playing left handed. (I am right handed.) Did that make me any less Van? Of course not. Could I choose to switch hands and use all my expertise? Yes.

The argument that if God elects to not use some of His attributes while incarnate makes Him less than 100% God is ludicrous.

Now you say "elects not to use some of His attributes." I thought before you were saying that the Son actually gave up the possession of them.

 

[AresMan]

The HP simply says Jesus was 100% God and 100% Man. End of story.

We have to define what that means. That's the point. The post-Constantinople controversies dealt with that question.

Next, you can claim scripture does not say Jesus emptied Himself till the cows come home. Your rewrite is not supported by the NASB, LEB, ESV, NET, YLT and WEB.

How many times are you going to accuse me of saying something I never said. I have always affirmed that Jesus "emptied Himself" per the text and that submission to the human nature included limited exercise of divine attributes.

"Rewrite"? What "rewrite"? Perhaps you can help me understand that by answering this question:

Do adverbs modify verbs?

 

[Happy]

Does "God's understanding" comply with His own written Word? Was Jesus both David's Lord and David's son as He Himself said?

God's written word has two meanings ~ Just as Jesus spoken word has two meanings.

One meaning is usually obvious ~ the other requires one to have trust and rely on God for the understanding thereof...and often the very one that MEN philosophize about, and guess, and attempt to determine from their own mind, instead of relying on Gods Understanding.

So, yes absolutely God's Understanding "complies" with His own written word. However God's deeper Understanding is NOT revealed IN His written word. It is given BY God, to men who belong to Him and seek His Understanding.

 

[Happy]

Was Jesus biologically a descendant of David through Mary?

No. He was a LAWFUL descendant. God does not require a human's makeup to appear as a human.

Scripture teaches Jesus was born of God ~ which simply means Jesus came forth OUT from God.
Jesus is the Word of God. When Gods Word comes forth out from God, things OF God are said/spoken/revealed.

Scripture reveals in Isaiah that Gods Word would come forth out of His mouth, and go to where He sends it, and accomplish what it was sent to do.

ACCOMPLISHED!

Isa 55

[11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

THAT THING ` was Mary's womb.

John.1

1. [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 1

[13] Which were .... not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,

John.16

1. 
   
   
   • [27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

John.19

1. [28] After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

 

[AresMan]

When I was young, I was a pretty good ping pong player.

 

[AresMan]

No. He was a LAWFUL descendant. God does not require a human's makeup to appear as a human.

He did not merely "appear as a human." He was a human (virginally conceived) and He was actually a descendant of David.

Act 2
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Gnostic Docetism cannot survive even rudimentary scrutiny from the Scripture. The passages are legion.

Scripture teaches Jesus was born of God ~ which simply means Jesus came forth OUT from God.
Jesus is the Word of God. When Gods Word comes forth out from God, things OF God are said/spoken/revealed.

Scripture reveals in Isaiah that Gods Word would come forth out of His mouth, and go to where He sends it, and accomplish what it was sent to do.

ACCOMPLISHED!

Do you believe that the Son eternally coexisted with the Father before creation?

Joh 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This passage is talking about Christians, NOT the "monogenes theos" of Joh 1:18. He is the "only unique" theos who is in the bosom of the Father and has exegeted Him. Our becoming "sons of God" is spiritual based on Him being one of us physically.

Joh 1
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

"kai ho logos sarx egeneto." That stabs Docetism right in the heart.

 

[AresMan]

God's written word has two meanings ~ Just as Jesus spoken word has two meanings.

One meaning is usually obvious ~ the other requires one to have trust and rely on God for the understanding thereof...and often the very one that MEN philosophize about, and guess, and attempt to determine from their own mind, instead of relying on Gods Understanding.

So, yes absolutely God's Understanding "complies" with His own written word. However God's deeper Understanding is NOT revealed IN His written word. It is given BY God, to men who belong to Him and seek His Understanding.

Let me guess: the truth requires a gnostic revelation of mystery, right?

 

[AresMan]

"Happy,"

1Jo 4
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jo 1
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Based on Holy Scripture I command you to repent of your antichrist gnosticism and stop preaching another Jesus and another gospel.