King Interview with Billy Graham

[guitarpreacher]

As I've followed this thread along the past couple days, I keep being reminded of the story of Paul in Acts 17 when he was in Athens before the counsil of philosophers there. These guys worshiped a multitude of false gods, and Paul had a golden opportunity to stand tall for truth and be the one who informed them that thier idol worship was going to send them straight to hell. I can just see him telling them, "If you die tonight, worshipping all these false gods, you'll go straight to hell. You will not pass go, you will not collect $200 and you will not get a 'get out of hell free' card." But that's not the approach he took.

Instead of telling them how they were going to bust hell wide open, he told them that they were actually worshipping the right God, they just didn't realize it.

Acts 17:23-24; "for as I was walking along I saw your many altars. And one of them had this inscription on it - 'To an Unknown God.' You have been worshiping him without knowing who he is, and now I wish to tell you about him. He is the God who made the world and everything in it. Since he is Lord of heaven and earth, he doesn't live in man made temples"

Do you believe that when the Greeks were paying honor to an unknown god that they were really worshipping God the Father? If you do, then how can you dogmatically say that someone who recongnizes the hand of the creator in nature and honestly seeks a connection with him cannot find him. Or, do you believe that Paul recognized where they were spiritually, and rather than drive a wedge between he and they, laid the foundation for a dialogue whereby he could present the Gospel message to receptive hearts?

If Billy Graham goes on national t.v. and tells all the muslims, all the catholics, all the hindus, and anyone else you might throw in the mix, that they're all going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus, what will their reaction be? He will lose the audience he has with them now. As it is, Billy Graham has the ears of presidents, kings, popes, pastors and everyone in between, of every race, color or creed. And if you're honest, you have to say that when they hand him the microphone and he has everyones undivided attention, he preaches salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ - PERIOD!

you know - you can win the argument and still lose the war. If dodging a question on muslims going to heaven means that Billy Graham gets to present the Gospel to more muslims, then I say "You go Billy!!!"

 

[gb93433]

Reading the posts remind me of something Spurgeon wrote. He wrote that the larger the congregation the more humble the pastor must be.

 

[TexasSky]

King,

I never said you can't accuse the President of unChristian behavior. I said you can't call him Hitler.

 

[TexasSky]

Larry,

Back up a moment.
You feel you have a Christian obligation to say, "Graham is wrong," over and over and over and over.

Well, I have that same Christian obligation to call a fellow Christian on their behavior.

Graham apologized for the words you objected to.
You ignore that and say, "words are cheap."

The bible says, "If you have aught against your brother leave your gift at the alter, seek him out, and be reconciled unto him."
I have asked you to search out Graham yourself. You refuse, claiming "others tried."
Well, the bible doesn't say, "Unless someone else tried to reconcile first." It tells YOU to do it before you approach the alter of God.

You keep saying over and over that your are correcting him, yet, you seem to be refusing to even try to talk to him. You refuse to hear his words correcting his errors. You refuse to forgive. Even though Christ said to forgive 70 times 7 times, you refuse to consider forgiving Billy.

So - yes, if you feel you have the right to call Billy Graham on what you perceive as "bad behavior." I do too. I think you're insistance on bashing Graham, (and when you reject his testimony and say that words are nothing you take it back to Graham bashing), you have crossed a biblical line that I am calling you on.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by guitarpreacher:
As I've followed this thread along the past couple days, I keep being reminded of the story of Paul in Acts 17 when he was in Athens before the counsil of philosophers there. These guys worshiped a multitude of false gods, and Paul had a golden opportunity to stand tall for truth and be the one who informed them that thier idol worship was going to send them straight to hell. I can just see him telling them, "If you die tonight, worshipping all these false gods, you'll go straight to hell. You will not pass go, you will not collect $200 and you will not get a 'get out of hell free' card." But that's not the approach he took.

Instead of telling them how they were going to bust hell wide open, he told them that they were actually worshipping the right God, they just didn't realize it.

Many do not agree with what you are saying. Actually, the word translated as "religious" in that passage, when Paul says "I see you are religious" also means superstitious. There are those who believe Paul was being sarcastic (which would certainly not have been out of character for him).

http://www.rctr.org/ap9.htm
Verse 22 Paul begins by saying that from his point of view, (theoreo means to behold, or view as a whole) the Athenians are overwhelmingly religious, even "superstitious in everything." Religion seems to be the dominant influence in their lives. The Greek adjective deisidaimonesterous has 19 letters and must be one of the longest words in the Greek New Testament. It is not very flattering, and corresponds exactly to the Latin superstitiosus, and means extremely fearful of the gods. It was the term used for "private superstitions" or ethnic religions. It is not enough to weaken the force of this word by rendering it "very religious" as the RSV and other recent translations do. The term is decidedly not a compliment, even in 25:19, where the noun form refers precisely to a contemptible ethnic religion (the Judaism of Paul's accusers) as distinct from reverence for the state religion. The Greeks and Romans both distinguished between formal state religion and the private "superstitions" or religions of the masses, and much disgust could be shown for ethnic religions when they conflicted with official formalities. This was one of the main causes of contempt for Christians (and for the Jews before them) throughout the Empire, that they refused to bow to public idols. They were therefore occasionally accused of "atheism" or rejection of the gods. Since the Epicureans were rather cynically "agnostic" about the gods, believing them to be too high up the chain of existence to be interested in human affairs, while the Stoics believed that their philosophy was a sophisticated substitute for popular superstition, it can hardly be claimed that Paul's opening gambit was a good example of bridge-building! On the contrary, he puts his finger on a well-known sore spot straightaway -- that the pagan philosophers had failed to diminish the abuses of idolatry in Greece, and their culture was still wholly given over to it, as verse 16 indicates. Paul was enraged by its obvious dominance.

 

[guitarpreacher]

Only the KJV renders that word "supersticious". Every other translation I looked at, and I looked at a bunch of them, says "very religious".

And I have no problem with Paul if he was being sarcastic. A little sarcasm with a smile can sometimes put people more at ease. If Paul used sarcasm to start a conversation, good for him. Still doesn't change the fact that he chose to start with what they knew in order to share with them what they didn't know.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Show me one sermon he has preached where he compromised the Word.

He compromised the word by preaching under the sponsorship of those who deny the very Christ he claims to follow. He compromised the word by saying that people of others religions might get to heaven apart from faith in Jesus Christ. What else do we need?

 

[Pastor Larry]

As I've followed this thread along the past couple days, I keep being reminded of the story of Paul in Acts 17 when he was in Athens before the counsil of philosophers there.

This is a great passage that condemns the method of Graham. Paul did not allow them to continue thinking their religious ways were okay. Paul confronted them where they stood and called them to repentance before a God who will judge the world. Graham has not consistently done that. He has allowed people to continue in the false idolatry of Roman Catholicism without confronthing their worship of strange gods. He has not consistently confronted Islam. Even last week in an interview with Hannity, the best he could come up with was that he and Franklin don't agree and he thinks Franklin doesn't believe what he said anymore. Why in the world wouldn't he say something like "We love Muslims, but they need to understand that the only way of salvation is in Jesus Christ"? You see, what you don't say is as telling as what you do say. Graham has consistently dropped the ball.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Graham apologized for the words you objected to.
You ignore that and say, "words are cheap."

Graham did not apologize in repentance. He never changed his behavior. What kind of "apology" is it when someone says something and then goes right back out and does the same thing again?

The bible says, "If you have aught against your brother leave your gift at the alter, seek him out, and be reconciled unto him."
I have asked you to search out Graham yourself. You refuse, claiming "others tried."
Well, the bible doesn't say, "Unless someone else tried to reconcile first." It tells YOU to do it before you approach the alter of God.

Graham did not offend me. He offended the body of Christ. Graham has consistently refused the teaching of the Bible on this issue. Others have tried and Graham refused. But I am not talking to Graham. I am talking to you and others like you. I don't belivee I have addressed anything here to Graham. When someone puts something in public time and time again, he is making a state

You keep saying over and over that your are correcting him,

I don't think I have said that over and over. I don't know, but it is irrelevant. I said correction is a part of the biblical process, and that has been done. And when someone refuses to repent, you expose and separate from them.

yet, you seem to be refusing to even try to talk to him. You refuse to hear his words correcting his errors.

He never gave them. Graham has spent 50 years doing something and has never repented of it. He has never clarified when he had every opportunity. When a man like Robert Schuller praises your soteriology, you ought to run off and hide in embarrassment. You should probably run and hide for having been there in the first place, but that's another issue.

You refuse to forgive. Even though Christ said to forgive 70 times 7 times, you refuse to consider forgiving Billy.

That's simply not true.

I think you're insistance on bashing Graham, (and when you reject his testimony and say that words are nothing you take it back to Graham bashing),

I have never bashed Graham. Telling the truth is not bashing or attacking. I have been very kind in what I have said. I have been very loving. I have steadfastly refused to engage in personal attacks. I have addressed only things that are clearly wrong, not even things that are questionable.

you have crossed a biblical line that I am calling you on.

What biblical line did I cross? YOu haven't shown any biblical principle that I have violated. I have spoken the truth in love, both for God and man. I have spoken up when someone has contradicted the truth of God's word and compromised the gospel. I have lovingly tried to warn you and others of the dangers of disobedience. I have not been unloving or unforgiving. I have not been judgmental. What did I do wrong in your opinion?

 

[patrick]

Larry,

From very early in Dr. Grahams ministry, people have disagreed with Billy. Some says he is liberal, some says he is to far from the right. He doesn't put the crusades on by himself. If more Baptist churches would have gotten behind him maybe we would not be having this silly debate now.

This is why the church is losing face today. We will attack our own. Who wants to be part of that? Is Billy Graham perfect? NO!!! Is Patrick perfect? NO!!! Is pastor Larry perfect?

 

[TexasSky]

Pastor Larry,

There are "right" ways and "wrong" ways, effective ways that help lead others to Christ, and ineffective ways that make people hostile toward the message of Christ because of the presentation of Christians, to teach the Gospel of Christ.

I've witnessed to Muslims, Jews, Mormons, Buddhists and Hindus, and I've been able to reach some with the words of Christ, but it didn't happen in a 5 second blasting of "wow, you're wrong and you're going to hell."

It happened with patience, love and waiting on the Holy Spirit to prepare the way and open the door. God knows the best way to reach God's people, and when a man or woman is sharing the words of Christ with someone they have to listen to the voice of God telling them "when" and "where" and "how". It is wrong to assume that any other Christian is "wrong" in carefully choosing their time, their words and their ways.

Example: Not very long after September 11th, nerves of everyone in the country were on edge, but most especially those Muslims living in Christian communities. My son was honored for high achievement in an International academic program and had to join others in a trip out of town. Among students honored were Muslims. I happened to work with the father of one of the muslim students. The father was especially skiddish. Someone had trashed the Mosque where he worshipped, writing on the walls that Muslims belong in hell. He didn't want to deny his son the honor his son had won, but he also did not want his son to make this trip. I had taken the time, after reading about the trashing, to go to the man, one on one, and tell him, "I heard about what happened. I am so very sorry. That is not how Christians are. That is not how we feel." On the day of the trip, he recognized me, he came to me and said, "Please, please watch over my son." I promised him that I would treat him like my own child. And I did. When religion came up, I did not "trash his" I carefully explained ours. That is the real message of Christ isn't it?

Well, on this trip, one of the Muslim mothers was in her traditional attire, and people were shunning her. She had a younger child with her. I sat with her, and we discussed the world, then travel. Where she was born, that kind of thing. Her son came over, sat with us, and hearing us, volunteered where he was born. I said, "Oh, wow, that's the birthplace of mankind according to many historians and theologians." His mother's mouth fell open, and she said, "You know this?" I said, "Yes. I know. Your faith is descended from Ishmael isn't it?" She was again stunned, and told me that most Christians knew nothing about her faith. We had a long talk, several hours, about why I believe in Christ, and what the differences in our faiths are, and what the similiarities in our faiths are.

I don't know how God will use the seeds planted that day, but I know that because I did not frighten or insult the woman by telling her children they were going to hell, I was able to share the story of Christ, not only with her, but with her son.

Love opens more doors and plows the ground for the message of Christ. Hate and bitterness and verbal condemnation closes doors and closes hearts.

The message, "Christ is the only way to the Father, and salvation comes through Christ," is what Billy Graham teaches today. I don't care about yesterday.

If we start judging fellow Christians on yesterdays - we are ignoring the example that Christ and the disciples and the members of the early church set for us. Yesterday is gone.

Today counts, and today Graham has stated, plainly, "Christ is the only way."

Why not let it go at that?

 

[guitarpreacher]

Pastor Larry,

I'm curious - How many muslims and hindus have you shared the gospel with lately?

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I said correction is a part of the biblical process, and that has been done. And when someone refuses to repent, you expose and separate from them.

I have not been judgmental. What did I do wrong in your opinion?

Have you personally written a letter or gone to Billy Graham pointing out what you believe to be wrong? If not then you have not done what scripture says you are to do in Gal 6:1-4, "Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another."

Do not rely on something someone else wrote about his claim of doing something. I have been in business long enough and pastored long enough to hear the liars proclaim something they never said or did. Graham even called those kind of fundamentalists liars.

 

[Pastor Larry]

From very early in Dr. Grahams ministry, people have disagreed with Billy. Some says he is liberal, some says he is to far from the right. He doesn't put the crusades on by himself. If more Baptist churches would have gotten behind him maybe we would not be having this silly debate now.

Many churches were behind him early on. But when Graham began to be disobedient and refused to repent, they left him in order to stay true to God and his word. If Graham had continued how he started, things would be much different today. Unfortunately, he didn't.

This is why the church is losing face today. We will attack our own.

That's not why the church is losing face. The church is losing face because she won't stand up for truth and righteousness. She gets involved in politics. She gets involved in social distractions. She tries to please everyone. And the one thing she is supposed to do ... be the pillar and support of the truth ... is the one thing she isn't doing because she too often won't take a stand against that which is not true. She is too scared to separate because she "might be unloving." That is the tragedy. We have so misdefined love as to lead to this kind of discussion about whether or not one is loving.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I've witnessed to Muslims, Jews, Mormons, Buddhists and Hindus, and I've been able to reach some with the words of Christ, but it didn't happen in a 5 second blasting of "wow, you're wrong and you're going to hell."

I agree. Why act like I don't? I have never said we should blast someone like that. You should come here and spend some time, rather than making stuff up about how I would handle something.

Today counts, and today Graham has stated, plainly, "Christ is the only way."

Why not let it go at that?

First, Graham has not plainly stated that in his words and actions. He has left the door open. He has not repented of what he has said in the past. He has not come out and said, 'I was wrong." Joel Osteen, for all his problems, at least posted a message on his website that he should have said it differently. I have never heard Graham say anything, and BTW, given the choice between Graham and Osteen, I would take Graham any day. He needs to come out and say, "I was wrong when I said that Muslims and Buddhists and Jews might go to heaven. They won't unless they turn in faith alone to the forgiveness found in Christ alone. I was wrong when I said that the Catholic church preaches the biblical gospel. They don't and my heart goes out to Catholics who have been deceived for all these years. I love them and pray that they will come to faith in Jesus Christ alone and get involved in a good Bible teaching church. I have been wrong to be sponsored by the liberal theological apostates. I should have never accepted their sponsorship. I should have trusted God to open the doors for the preaching of the gospel."

In other words, Graham needs to make it clear that he is repenting. I am sure he would find love and forgiveness from most on this side, and then you would see the hate and intolerance of the other side in full force. They don't like people who stand for truth.

Love opens more doors and plows the ground for the message of Christ. Hate and bitterness and verbal condemnation closes doors and closes hearts.

I absolutely agree and I practice that in life. The key is that love must contain the truth. It is very unloving to let someone go on in sin and rebellion against God. We must handle it lovingly, but we must handle it.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I'm curious - How many muslims and hindus have you shared the gospel with lately?

We do not have many around here. I know a Muslim guy that owns a Subway across the street. I have tried to build a relationshiop with him. I have invited him to church. He has offered us sandwiches and cookies. Another Muslim guy I am trying to befriend is a butcher and has offered us meat. I have invited them to church. I have tried to befriend them and build a relationship with them. But the reality is that we don't have that many around here. Most of the Muslims around here are about 4-5 miles away and there are about 200,000 people closer than that who I am trying to reach.

 

[TexasSky]

Actually, Larry,

Graham HAS repented, he HAS said, "I was wrong," he HAS said, "When I was younger, I was unsure, now I am certain. I have recommitted my life to the true message of Christ. I have recommitted my life to clarifying that Jesus is the only way."

By refusing to acknowledge that, even though it has been stated, over and over, and over again in these threads, you are not forgiving, you are not loving, you are just bashing.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Have you personally written a letter or gone to Billy Graham pointing out what you believe to be wrong? If not then you have not done what scripture says you are to do in Gal 6:1-4,

I haven't written or contacted him. One thing that is missing in this post or yours is the idea of circle of influence. Graham is not within my circle of influence. As I previously stated, I am not addressing him, but those who are here. I have, in the spirit of meekness, addressed those here are are in a position of being mislead. I have urged them to come back. I have publicly requested that when someone sees me doing something in rebellion or disobedience to Scripture (not personal preference) that they come and talk to me.

Graham has been confronted for more than 50 years about this. Don't forget this. Nothing that I have said here is a matter of dispute. It is public record. There are liars to be sure, who have lied about Graham. I have repeated none of those. Everything I have mentioned can be verified.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Have you personally written a letter or gone to Billy Graham pointing out what you believe to be wrong? If not then you have not done what scripture says you are to do in Gal 6:1-4,

I haven't written or contacted him. One thing that is missing in this post or yours is the idea of circle of influence. </font>[/QUOTE]Your idea of circle of influence is negating the power of God. I was in a very large church where the pastor did not know me. I contacted him about something he preached and he changed his ways for the better.

If you have not contacted him about your concerns then you have not done the first thing scripture admonishes you to do in Gal.6. Where does scripture make that a condition. That is your own reasoning.

You mentioned that you would like for people in your congregation to give you the same honor. Why not give him the same?

You have written some things on the BB which are your opinion and I disagree and agree with some. But that does not make any of them fact.

If you have ever been accused of something you never said or did you know what I am talking about.

 

[Pastor Larry]

You were obviously in his circle of influence by virtue of being a member of the church. (Was that too obvious to point out??? ). Seriously, the circle of influence is extremely important. I don't have a responsibility to confront your children on what they do wrong. They are not in my influence. That doesn't keep me from talking about the wrongness of what they do.

Graham's issues are public. We are to turn away from him (Rom 16:17-18; 2 JOhn 10; etc.) That doesn't mean to keep on going back.

I have often been accused of saying things I didn't say. Even in this thread, that has happened sevearl times. But that is irrelevant because these things we are talking about with Graham are things he did say.