King Interview with Billy Graham

[Rachel]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Again -

You people do not KNOW that he "dodged the question" He responsed that they were certainly right about some of what they thought, and then, as he was elaborating on that, his message was lost to "cross chatter," and came back in on the words "to hell" or "in hell". .. no one knows what the rest of his statement was.

That's exactly right. None of us know what was edited out, none of us were there in the studio.
I don't doubt at all they edited it out so they didn't offend their listeners. But I don't know one way or the other. So I don't see how anyone here can say for sure BG was wrong.

As pointed out many times also by others, when I have seen him on tv preaching, he preaches the gospel. I also don't see how we can blame BG for people coming up to the platform afterward that are just having an emotional experience or feel like they should go or whatever. That's not his fault. That happens every week in churches on a much smaller scale.

 

[Andy T.]

Marcia, Shannon & Kiffen,

Great responses - exactly what I've been wanting to express, but you all said it much better. Thanks!

 

[Kiffen]

Again -

You people do not KNOW that he "dodged the question" He responsed that they were certainly right about some of what they thought, and then, as he was elaborating on that, his message was lost to "cross chatter," and came back in on the words "to hell" or "in hell". .. no one knows what the rest of his statement was.

I am not talking about the rest of the statement. I am talking about the clear statement he made. Here it is,

KING: But what about those faiths -- the Mormons and the others that you mentioned -- believe in Christ. They believe they will meet Christ. What about those like the Jews, the Muslims, who don't believe they ...

GRAHAM: That's in God's hands. I can't be the judge.

That is an incorrect statement. We can be the judge with the authority of the Word of God to tell every repentant sinner that eternal life is theirs and we have the authority to tell every unrepentant sinner who rejects Christ that they will face the eternal wrath of God unless they repent.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

Maybe Billy Graham was confused and maybe he should make a statement correcting himself. I don't know his motives BUT the fact that Christ commissioned the Church to preach the good news implies we are judging that those without Christ are in danger of Hell fire.

To say I can't judge implies, "I don't know where people who don't believe upon Christ go". That is entirely FALSE.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Kiffen:

To say I can't judge implies, "I don't know where people who don't believe upon Christ go". That is entirely FALSE.

"I can't judge" means he is not the Judge which is a completely true statement. He can make a judgement of what the Judge will decide about an individual or groups of individuals. Of what value is making that personal judgement known national television?

 

[Kiffen]

"I can't judge" means he is not the Judge which is a completely true statement. He can make a judgement of what the Judge will decide about an individual or groups of individuals. Of what value is making that personal judgement known national television?

Gold Dragon, To say the Mormons, Muslims are lost is not a personal judgement. King was not implying that Graham would sit on the Throne and determine who goes to Heaven or Hell. He was asking him what about these others (or in his mind, Graham's personal beliefs on this). Not a hard question. It appears to be a dodge so not to offend or he was confused. I don't believe Graham is a universalist or a heretic BUT as much as I like him, he was wrong. Any time we witness or preach the Gospel we are a making a judgment.

Your statement, "Of what value is making that personal judgement known national television?" brings up the fact that the Gospel in an offensive message to the unregenerate. It will not be well received by most for the Good News implies those without Christ are under condemnation.

 

[TexasSky]

YOU wrote: Actually, you're wrong. Salvation is that we are saved from the wrath of God on sin, which results in hell. What do you think we are saved from?

I think we were saved from living without God.

To me salvation was about coming to God, not running from a punishment I earned.

Love drew me to Christ.

"No man comes unto the Father, except by me."

See - I believe that life without God in it, is already hell. Sure, there is a final judgment day with the pit of fire. But the real loss, the real tragedy is NOT having God in your life.

I've got to be honest here, if that Lake of Fire is the final, ending death that consumes so that nothing is left afterwards I think it is merciful, because real hell would be total separation from God.

Everything in the universe that is worth wanting is part of the very being and essence of God.
Love is born of God.
Forgiveness is born of God.
Mercy is born of God.
HOPE springs from God.

Everything holy is of God.

Life without God is life with nothing but our own self-centered, never satisified, always miserable, empty, hollowness. Life without God is already hell so why would I fear "going to hell," if I am already living in it?

Offer me more than that. Offer me a chance to be in the presence of love, to touch holiness, to be counted as a child of the king of all goodness.

I was VERY young when I came to Christ, but I can still remember how empty and cold and lonely life was without Him.

You may be "saved" from going to hell.

I was "saved" from doing without the loving presence of God.

I never even understood what hell was when I came to Christ.

He isn't my insurance policy.

He's the greatest love of my life.

 

[TexasSky]

So,

Just out of curiosity.
Are those of you attacking Dr. Graham saying the the salvation of the Muslims, Jews, and Hindus is not in God's hand?

 

[TexasSky]

How many of you, when you are channel surfing, would stop to hear the message of a man who said, "Yes, Baptists are going to hell."

How many of you, would stop to hear the message of a man saying, "I found the answers to every single problem in life, and it is Jesus Christ, and it is Jesus Christ's right to judge who will be in heaven with him?"

I mean - you all ARE saying that Graham missed a chance to speak up for Christ.

So - tell me - how many of you would stick around for the REAL message of Christ?

And by the way, was the real message of Christ - The Samaritans and Gentiles and Greeks and Romans are going to hell?

Ever hear Christ phrase the message of salvation as anything LESS than "God is the judge"???

If I'm missed it, please, by all means, show me.

I keep running across, "I'm the answer to everything," and "I'm the way," and even, "I'm the only way," but I'm not finding that, "You! That one there! That one worshipping the false God! You're going to hell!"

 

[TexasSky]

Kiffen,

I disagree that it was "not a hard question."

In fact, I think it was as much a "trap" question as the Phraisses liked to toss at Christ all the time. You remember, those, "Should we tithe or give to Cesear," questions.

Given a guaranteed opportunity and time to deliver the message of Christ's love and salvation it is STILL a poor idea for your initial approach a member of a false relgion with "you're going to hell," because they instantly slam the door to hearing anything else you have to say.

That isn't how Paul taught either. He did not walk into Greece, pounding the pulpit, screaming, "You're going to hell." He told them, "This is the Son of God! Look at the miracles He performed! Look at the Prophecy He fulfilled!" He told them, "This is what he did for you!" THEN he told them, "This is the way to God the Father."

But, given that there MIGHT actually be a time when it was better to handle it that way - a television program like Larry King is as wrong a place and time as there EVER could be.

You will do FAR more damage than you could POSSIBLY do good.

1) Not even King has final edit authority. Some network exec does. So, if you say, "Yes they are going to hell if they don't believe in Christ, and this is HOW to come to Christ." You cannot know that anything other than "YES" will hit the air waves.
2) If one person out there who IS Muslim or IS Mormon or IS Hindu is listening, and thinking, "Wow, Graham found something wonderful! I want to know this Christ He says is the answer to everything," hears, "You are going to hell," the odds are 100 to 1 that they will not JUST stop listening to Graham, they will stop speaking to most Christians, and the work of some Christian close to them, the work to help show them WHY Christ is the only way can be set back decades.
3) Mormons are going to hell, is NOT really a message of salvation.

The question was NOT asked as, "How do you obtain salvation."

It was asked "Are they going to hell?"

 

[TexasSky]

I don't agree with this either" To say I can't judge implies, "I don't know where people who don't believe upon Christ go".

Graham's exact words were "It is in God's hands, I cannot judge."

I think it implies - God is the God of salvation.

 

[guitarpreacher]

You guys need to cut Billy a lot of slack. What you saw was a finished, edited product intended for consumption by a secular audience, offered by a person who in the past has been hostile to Christianity.

You cannot assume that what you heard is really everything that Billy Graham said.

 

[TexasSky]

Marcia,

I'm not bitter. I share past experiences to educate young evangelicals. By young, I mean "haven't been a Christian that long" as opposed to "age".

I've spent close to 50 years trying to reach the lost for Christ. The first time I ever shared the message of Christ with a non-Christian was the day after I came to know Christ as Lord and Savior.

I've studied God's word, I've studied in seminaries, I've studied in religion classes. I've studied other relgions. I've prayed, and I've wept over the lost.

I've also, Praise God, learned a few things along the way. Sometimes I learned by error, often I learned because men of God and women of God took the time to say, "Learn from my experience."

There are right ways and wrong ways to approach the lost. There are ways that draw people toward Christ and there are ways that turn people away from God. And if you think it doesn't matter to God, you better go back to your Bible.

When David sinned with Bathsheba, God's words were NOT, "I'm taking your child because you lusted, and you committed adultry, and you arranged a murder." Gods words given as the reason for the death of the child conceived were "You have made the enemies of God show utter contempt."

God does care how our actions look to His enemies, and speaking out in words that are viewed as hateful CAN cause someone to reject God.

God can undo the damage a well meaning Christian does, but it would be so much better if we didn't make those errors.

Think about this - if I remember, you are the one with the testimony of being into the Occult and Spiritualism and other such things. Of being openly hostile toward Christ for years.

You indicated, if I am not confusing you with someone else, that you spent years and years teaching for the enemy of God, and about 14 or 15 years ago you came to Christ.

Now you talk about how you sluffed off some hateful Christians and got over it. ...

Marcia, how many years that COULD have been for Christ were years for Satan because you were so turned off by one of those hateful Christians you sluffed off you didn't listen to the voice of God until 14 years ago?

What if you'd listened earlier?

Why is it so important to you, or to anyone else, to insult Billy Graham?

Are you living in a community where there are no Mormons? No Muslims? No Jews? No Hindus?

Are you walking into synagogues, Mosques, or the temples of Buddah saying, "You're going to hell?"

Are you walking into them and saying, "Let me tell you about Christ?"

Are you, personally, doing ANYTHING, to reach them?

At LEAST Graham told them about the forgiveness of Christ.
At least Graham told them about the amazing power and authority of Christ.

Don't knock Billy if you haven't done at least as MUCH as he did.

 

[Marcia]

Posted by TexasSky
Now you talk about how you sluffed off some hateful Christians and got over it. ...

Marcia, how many years that COULD have been for Christ were years for Satan because you were so turned off by one of those hateful Christians you sluffed off you didn't listen to the voice of God until 14 years ago?

What if you'd listened earlier?

I wasn't a believer. I don't know what you are asking. My heart was hardened.

Why is it so important to you, or to anyone else, to insult Billy Graham?

This is an unfair question. First of all, I am not insulting BG. Secondly, it is not insulting him to comment on what he said in a TV interview. As I pointed out already, at least 3 times, the issue to me is how more and more Christians are evading the Jesus is the only way question. It's a wrong answer to say, if someone asks about Muslims or Buddhists, that you don't know what will happen. The Bible, which you say you believe, tells us what will happen. If they do not trust Christ, they will go to hell. Larry King was trying to ask this. He did it with Osteen the other night and Osteen gave the same kind of answer as BG (he also said he watched BG and maybe that's where he got it from).

Are you living in a community where there are no Mormons? No Muslims? No Jews? No Hindus?

Are you walking into synagogues, Mosques, or the temples of Buddah saying, "You're going to hell?"

This makes me laugh. I have a full-time ministry to people in the occult and New Age. I've witnessed to witches, satanists, New Agers, atheists, Mormons, JW's, and I've never started any conversation with "You're going to hell."

You apparently don't read my posts. You are once again falling into a false dichotomy of either it's all love or we just preach hell. It's neither. It's neither. It's neither. Please read what I write. I'm tired of repeating.

 

[TexasSky]

Marcia,

For about the 12th time I do not offer a one-sided doctortin.

I believe in Godly correction - Carried out in a Godly way.

I believe hell exists. - But I don't believe you can "scare people into heaven," by promising them insurance polices against hell. That is not what salvation is about. Salvation is about a relationship to Jesus Christ.

PLEASE pay attention:

The transcript of King and Graham says that there is cross chatter and that the rest of what Graham said was lost. So you already know, up front, that you did not hear all of what he said.

The man is 86 years old, he is suffering from disease, and by suffering, I mean severe pain.
He was asked his opinion. He said, "God is the judge," he was asked to clarify his opinion and his clarification was "lost in cross chatter."

And you say you don't start off your wittness to others standing there going, "you're going to hell," well, would you stand up on a national television program where you KNEW, absolutely KNEW you did not have the chance to preach a full sermon, or to expound on your meaning, or explain anything of the sort, have answered, "Yes?"

And frankly, I saw your page up on the web. You have a Mike Warnicki wittness. You spent a lot more time talking about what kind of power and out of body experiences you had with Satan than you do talking about Christ. That bothered me a lot. It bothered me so much that I wonderd if I was just imagining it, so I actually copied and pasted it and ran a "word count" on it. You spent 2,355 words on your life with Satan, and gave Christ 1,389 if I include the scripture you used.

But I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and thought, "She is writing to Satanists, maybe God gave her a reason for approaching it this way." I ask you to give Graham the SAME kind of "benefit."

MAYBE, just MAYBE - God told Billy the best answer for that moment to the group God knew would see the message.

 

[shannonL]

Texas Sky,

There are plenty of people who have come to Christ because they were afraid of going to hell. They heard a message on hell or someone told them about it and in turn they wanted to know what they must do to be saved.
Mormons do not believe that Jesus was God in the flesh. I have Mormon neighbors. They have sent their bycicle boys over to my house to try and convert me. I have shared the Gospel with them. Including info on hell. We get along fine.

BTW, You can't even explain Jn 3:16 without explaining hell, condemnation...etc.. "shall not perish"

Also, its not my beef but your last post directed to Marcia was over the top. Just what exactly are you implying toward her? What does do she glorify satan? You ran a word count kinda petty.

For crying out loud all folk are saying is BG could have made a more direct comment concerning other religions. Nobody is trying to burn him at the stake. I think has had a remarkable minstry but still he has had very questionable associations since the 50's

You think its kosher to send a babe in Christ back into a R. Catholic church so they can be a witness? So when one first gets saved they need to be able to combat the mountain of false teaching of the RC church? That is stretch.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Marcia,

I believe hell exists. - But I don't believe you can "scare people into heaven," by promising them insurance polices against hell. That is not what salvation is about. Salvation is about a relationship to Jesus Christ.

This is a straw man. I have NEVER said that I believe in scaring people into heaven by talking about hell, and futhermore, that is not what this is about. You keep repeating the same error -- implying that I believe in scaring people with hell. BG was asked a question and gave an evasive response. This is the issue.

And frankly, I saw your page up on the web. You have a Mike Warnicki wittness. You spent a lot more time talking about what kind of power and out of body experiences you had with Satan than you do talking about Christ.

I invite anyone to read my testimony and tell me it does not glorify Christ. The worst stuff I was involved in, the greater the glory to Christ. My story is my story -- I was into that stuff for most of my adult life, so I don't just cover it in a few words. And yes, I wrote it specfically for people who are involved in what I was into, which is not, btw, Satanism. Also, comparing it to Mike Warnke is wrong because he was shown to be a fraud.

Did you know Jesus talked more about hell than love?

And you say you don't start off your wittness to others standing there going, "you're going to hell," well, would you stand up on a national television program where you KNEW, absolutely KNEW you did not have the chance to preach a full sermon, or to expound on your meaning, or explain anything of the sort, have answered, "Yes?"

I would answer according to the Bible. So if LK asked me "what about Muslims, Buddhists, and Mormons?" I would say, "Jesus himself said he is the only way to heaven." What's so hard about that? That's exactly what I would say, and I've said it to unbelievers who ask that question many times, in lectures and by email. I said it when I gave my testimony to 6,000 teenagers in Alabama a few years ago.

 

[TexasSky]

Shannon,

My daughter's mission field is home missions directed at winning the cults to Christ, her specialization is Mormons. I'm glad to hear that you wittness to them.

Regarding hell. There is a difference in, "All of us deserve hell," and in, "you deserve hell." The message heard when you make a broad statement like, "All Mormons are going to hell," is not "Christ is the answer." It is, "I think I'm better than you." The message, "Everyone deserves hell, but Christ offers a pardon to all, and only those that accept His forgiveness escape the punishment they have earned," is a different message.

[personal attack snipped]

Still, it nagged at me, and STILL nags at me. Partly because of my journalism background. You are taught to put everything important in paragraphs one and two, because most of the audience won't read past paragraph 3. Well, if I had stopped at 3, I'd have a pretty good idea of how powerful Satan is, and no idea how to be saved.

Still, I believed, after forcing myself to read the whole thing, that she really is trying to give a testimony for Christ.

So, as I said, above, it bothered me a lot, and still does, how it is laid out, and that more time is given to the glory of Satan than the glory of God, but I give her the benefit of the doubt.

Had I written that testimony, or had a hand in helping her write it I would have not expounded on the powers of being a Satanist. I would not give him that much air time.

There are kids who read THIS board. They may or may not know Christ. They may or may not be curious about the occult. If they follow the link to her testimony from here, they'll hear that they can have out of body experience, fortell the future, and have almost magical powers if they follow Satan, and I think that's a DANGEROUS thing to tell kids.

Yes, it DOES say Christ is the only way. Yes it does say Christ is our Savior. Yes it does say He offers peace.

But I don't want kids reading that they really can have Saturday Morning Cartoon Occult Power if they follow Satan.

So, again, I give her the benefit of the doubt, but my objection stands, and if that offends, I am sorry it offends, but I DO object to how it is presented.

Since I give her the benefit of the doubt, in regards to accepting that she truly didn't mean it to glorify Satan, I think SHE in turn, needs to give Dr. Graham the benefit of the doubt.

As to Catholics and everyone else who is "a babe in Christ," - God watches over His people, Shannon. You cannot, as a man, force anyone to abandon the church of their birth. You can tell them the message of Christ, and you can encourage them in the study of the word, but you cannot lock them away. SO, you pray, and you follow up, and contrary to what others say, BGEA DOES have followup teams via local churches. And you trust God, that EVEN in a Catholic church, He'll guide a Christian who IS a Christian.

[ June 24, 2005, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]

 

[Marcia]

Texas Sky,

You are falsely implying my testimony gives glory to Satan. This is a serious charge and I am asking for an apology, public or private.

Just fyi, several people have come to Christ from reading my testimony online, and sometimes dialoguing with me afterwards. It is not because of me -- I do not take the credit. Obviously, the Lord used it.

But that's not even the point -- the point is that you are making spurious accusations and I ask for an apology.

 

[TexasSky]

[Totally inappropriate post - snipped and poster publically warned that such attacks will earn suspension of posting privileges. I am now WAY beyond unhappy.]

[ June 24, 2005, 02:11 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]

 

[TexasSky]

[Attack snipped. Nothing left]

[ June 24, 2005, 02:13 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]