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King Interview with Billy Graham
- Thread starter Marcia
- Start date
T
TexasSky
Guest
Andy,
I posted the statement about wishing that "you're evil and going to hell," was a thing of the past because you commented on how I knew bad people from my past, and the statement meant, "I wish it was just the past."
Most of my witnessing now days is to those who have been so hurt by Christians that they turn that anger toward Christians against God. They, with good reason, judge God by us.
I hear today, over and over, "You Christians want everyone who is different to burn and be tortured forever. You want people to go to hell."
Think about that, "You want people to go to hell."
If we would quietly, patiently, carefully, lovingly speak to them of Christ and explain, with patience WHY Christ is the only way, we can teach them, guide them and maybe open a doorway to the Christ.
If we just stand there and go, "Yeah, your going to hell if you don't change," we don't teach them anything. We really don't.
The key to salvation is NOT punishment. Salvation is not about hiding from hell.
Salvation is about a daily walk with Christ, it is about a personal relationship with God. Lets tell them THAT.
By NOT saying, "Yes, I think Muslim's are going to hell," when he knows there is going to be a commercial break in a few seconds and may never be another chance to get the Muslim who may be listening to learn about Christ, Dr. Graham kept a door open.
By saying, "Jesus Christ is the answer to every problem," by saying, "I asked for forgiveness and there was an instant, lasting peace," Dr. Graham told those SAME Muslims the important part of the message. CHRIST is the answer.
If they GET that part of it, they don't HAVE to worry about hell.
As to why I harp on this. ... let me show you something......
From a "Christian" to a "Muslim" on a board FOR Muslims ABOUT Muslims. Posted just seconds ago.
"Wrong, they believe in a violent monkey god, a monkey god who created the low life muslims in his own image. Monkey see monkey do."
------------------------------
Think that is going to win souls to Christ?
-----------------
I posted this question on a different board, set up for Christians:
>I wanted to know how people react to being told, "You're going to hell."
And - this is the response I got:
Personally, I tend to view people who tell others that they are going to hell as off- kilter, thoughtless and not very engaged in either the bible or God. Seems to me the bible states that no one knows what God's plan for any individual is and such judgements by man are folly at best and divisive and hostile at worst. Seems to me also that if one is truly interested in trying to get someone to investigate something, it is easy to do so with patience, understanding, humbleness, and love.
And I agree. It is easy to teach Christ with patience and love and understanding.
Hell and hell insurance aren't the message of Christ.
I posted the statement about wishing that "you're evil and going to hell," was a thing of the past because you commented on how I knew bad people from my past, and the statement meant, "I wish it was just the past."
Most of my witnessing now days is to those who have been so hurt by Christians that they turn that anger toward Christians against God. They, with good reason, judge God by us.
I hear today, over and over, "You Christians want everyone who is different to burn and be tortured forever. You want people to go to hell."
Think about that, "You want people to go to hell."
If we would quietly, patiently, carefully, lovingly speak to them of Christ and explain, with patience WHY Christ is the only way, we can teach them, guide them and maybe open a doorway to the Christ.
If we just stand there and go, "Yeah, your going to hell if you don't change," we don't teach them anything. We really don't.
The key to salvation is NOT punishment. Salvation is not about hiding from hell.
Salvation is about a daily walk with Christ, it is about a personal relationship with God. Lets tell them THAT.
By NOT saying, "Yes, I think Muslim's are going to hell," when he knows there is going to be a commercial break in a few seconds and may never be another chance to get the Muslim who may be listening to learn about Christ, Dr. Graham kept a door open.
By saying, "Jesus Christ is the answer to every problem," by saying, "I asked for forgiveness and there was an instant, lasting peace," Dr. Graham told those SAME Muslims the important part of the message. CHRIST is the answer.
If they GET that part of it, they don't HAVE to worry about hell.
As to why I harp on this. ... let me show you something......
From a "Christian" to a "Muslim" on a board FOR Muslims ABOUT Muslims. Posted just seconds ago.
"Wrong, they believe in a violent monkey god, a monkey god who created the low life muslims in his own image. Monkey see monkey do."
------------------------------
Think that is going to win souls to Christ?
-----------------
I posted this question on a different board, set up for Christians:
>I wanted to know how people react to being told, "You're going to hell."
And - this is the response I got:
Personally, I tend to view people who tell others that they are going to hell as off- kilter, thoughtless and not very engaged in either the bible or God. Seems to me the bible states that no one knows what God's plan for any individual is and such judgements by man are folly at best and divisive and hostile at worst. Seems to me also that if one is truly interested in trying to get someone to investigate something, it is easy to do so with patience, understanding, humbleness, and love.
And I agree. It is easy to teach Christ with patience and love and understanding.
Hell and hell insurance aren't the message of Christ.
Charles Meadows
New Member
Andy,
One could come with the impression from Billy Graham's statements that Jesus is My Savior BUT I am not the judge on those who reject what I believe.
That IS the essence of his statement.
We do however have the authority to judge in eternal matters based upon the authority of what God's word says. He is in error in saying that..
No WE do not have the AUTHORITY to judge. That is one of the main points of disagreement here. WE know what is written - and we know that anyone who rejects Jesus is going to hell.
But Jesus accepted the sinners for who they were. They were sinners - He knew it and they knew it. But the sinners also realized that there was something different about Jesus. He was not one of the Pharisees. He could have "preached hell" to them but He did not initially do so. Now the Bible tells us that Jesus knew hearts - and thus He knew which were repentent and which were not. And the ones who were repentent He did not spare criticism.
Isn't it funny that He was harsher on the Pharisees than the "sinners"?
One could come with the impression from Billy Graham's statements that Jesus is My Savior BUT I am not the judge on those who reject what I believe.
That IS the essence of his statement.
We do however have the authority to judge in eternal matters based upon the authority of what God's word says. He is in error in saying that..
No WE do not have the AUTHORITY to judge. That is one of the main points of disagreement here. WE know what is written - and we know that anyone who rejects Jesus is going to hell.
But Jesus accepted the sinners for who they were. They were sinners - He knew it and they knew it. But the sinners also realized that there was something different about Jesus. He was not one of the Pharisees. He could have "preached hell" to them but He did not initially do so. Now the Bible tells us that Jesus knew hearts - and thus He knew which were repentent and which were not. And the ones who were repentent He did not spare criticism.
Isn't it funny that He was harsher on the Pharisees than the "sinners"?
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
Gold Dragon, does that mean that we are allowed to be scathing, condescending and judgmental towards religious conservatives or anyone we deem to be "Pharisaical"? What exactly is your point here? </font>[/QUOTE]My point is to remind us of Christ. Jesus encountered many religious conservatives who made it a point to point out the sin of others. He also encountered many people who clearly sinned against God and God's law in reprehensible ways. His approach to each group is admired even by those who do not proclaim him as Lord.
T
TexasSky
Guest
By the way, Andy,
I am a religious conservative.
I believe the Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life.
I believe that NO man, comes unto the Father, EXCEPT by Him.
I believe Jesus Christ is the only begotten son, of the God of creation.
I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I believe that every Christian should strive to live like Christ lived.
I believe God hates sin.
I believe God when He says He loves us, even though we sin.
I believe that ALL men, including me, have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
I believe that God intends for us to keep the commandments, and that when we fail, we should ask forgiveness and repent.
I believe that the commandments include the do's as well as the don'ts.
I believe the bible when it says all the commandments hang on the commandment to love.
I believe in hell.
I believe fear of hell won't save you.
Belief IN Christ will.
I believe if Christians spent 1/2 as much time building up others, and loving like Christ loved them as they do tearing down men like Billy Graham, we would know Christ is returning tomorrow because His word WAS preached to the four corners of the earth.
I am a religious conservative.
I believe the Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life.
I believe that NO man, comes unto the Father, EXCEPT by Him.
I believe Jesus Christ is the only begotten son, of the God of creation.
I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I believe that every Christian should strive to live like Christ lived.
I believe God hates sin.
I believe God when He says He loves us, even though we sin.
I believe that ALL men, including me, have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
I believe that God intends for us to keep the commandments, and that when we fail, we should ask forgiveness and repent.
I believe that the commandments include the do's as well as the don'ts.
I believe the bible when it says all the commandments hang on the commandment to love.
I believe in hell.
I believe fear of hell won't save you.
Belief IN Christ will.
I believe if Christians spent 1/2 as much time building up others, and loving like Christ loved them as they do tearing down men like Billy Graham, we would know Christ is returning tomorrow because His word WAS preached to the four corners of the earth.
T
TexasSky
Guest
Well stated Gold Dragon:
"My point is to remind us of Christ. Jesus encountered many religious conservatives who made it a point to point out the sin of others. He also encountered many people who clearly sinned against God and God's law in reprehensible ways. His approach to each group is admired even by those who do not proclaim him as Lord."
"My point is to remind us of Christ. Jesus encountered many religious conservatives who made it a point to point out the sin of others. He also encountered many people who clearly sinned against God and God's law in reprehensible ways. His approach to each group is admired even by those who do not proclaim him as Lord."
T
TexasSky
Guest
Well said Charles:
"But Jesus accepted the sinners for who they were. They were sinners - He knew it and they knew it. But the sinners also realized that there was something different about Jesus. He was not one of the Pharisees. He could have "preached hell" to them but He did not initially do so. Now the Bible tells us that Jesus knew hearts - and thus He knew which were repentent and which were not. And the ones who were repentent He did not spare criticism.
Isn't it funny that He was harsher on the Pharisees than the "sinners"? "
"But Jesus accepted the sinners for who they were. They were sinners - He knew it and they knew it. But the sinners also realized that there was something different about Jesus. He was not one of the Pharisees. He could have "preached hell" to them but He did not initially do so. Now the Bible tells us that Jesus knew hearts - and thus He knew which were repentent and which were not. And the ones who were repentent He did not spare criticism.
Isn't it funny that He was harsher on the Pharisees than the "sinners"? "
I'm not Jesus, nor do I know men's hearts. As a Christian, I am called to proclaim the truth in love, no matter if the person is a heathen or a hypocritical Pharisee, or a revered brother in Christ like Graham.
By the way, ever read the sermons of Peter in Acts? Some pretty harsh stuff. Ever read Paul's letters? Also pretty harsh stuff at times. Those writings are the very Word of God, and proceed from the mouth Jesus just as much as the words we find in the four Gospels. What I am looking for is balance - I'm not calling us to be mean and nasty, as TexasSky keeps implying. Just the truth in love, that's all.
Here we go again - more false implications. I never said belief in hell will save you, or that salvation is merely "hell insurance".
Hopefully you will take your own advice, because for every mean-spirited, bigoted Christian out there wasting time on hating people, you yourself spend quite a bit of time tearing down other Christians for all their judgmental, mean, nasty, Pharisaical ways.
T
TexasSky
Guest
Andy,
You talk about "balance," and I am curious. Do you mean to imply that what Paul teaches somehow "counters" or serves as a "counter balance' to the words of Christ found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?
Because if you do, you're mistaken.
Paul repeats the message of Christ, over and over and over and over again. With love.
In fact, it is Paul, spent a lot of time teaching to correct and teach with love.
In fact, this is how he tells us to deal with a brother whose behavior has grieved us:
"Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwelmed by obessive sorrow. I urge you therefore to reaffirm your love for him." 2 Corin 2:7-8
One other thing Andy - understand, you and everyone else. EVERY WORD PAUL TAUGHT was BASED on the teachings of Christ as we find them Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Saul became Paul on that dirt road in a hot sun, and was sent to a Christian who taught him the things that Christ taught. Paul, they believe, studied the teachings of other Christians. We know he was sent to Christians to learn.
He does not "balance" out the words of Christ, Andy. If he did, he would be Satantic and need to be striken from the bible.
God doesn't NEED to be balanced by Paul.
Paul teaches what Christ taught, but Paul, as he traveled, and formed churches had questions come up that required him to go back and pray and study the word of God, and offer answers for. Words that people were not finding easily when they searched the teachings found in what we call the four gospels.
So, what Paul does is explain how to apply the teachings of Christ to every day life. What Paul actually DID was not so different from what any other truly God fearing man of God does.
He studied the scripture.
He prayed.
He guided flocks of believers he believed in his heart God wanted him to guide them.
And, for reasons God alone knows, the letters that Paul wrote back and forth to men became part of Holy Scripture. So, I feel it is safe to assume, that is because Paul's interpretations were correct.
But understand, CHRIST and GOD wrote the bible. NOT a Jewish Roman Citizen who was once known as Saul.
You talk about "balance," and I am curious. Do you mean to imply that what Paul teaches somehow "counters" or serves as a "counter balance' to the words of Christ found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?
Because if you do, you're mistaken.
Paul repeats the message of Christ, over and over and over and over again. With love.
In fact, it is Paul, spent a lot of time teaching to correct and teach with love.
In fact, this is how he tells us to deal with a brother whose behavior has grieved us:
"Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwelmed by obessive sorrow. I urge you therefore to reaffirm your love for him." 2 Corin 2:7-8
One other thing Andy - understand, you and everyone else. EVERY WORD PAUL TAUGHT was BASED on the teachings of Christ as we find them Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Saul became Paul on that dirt road in a hot sun, and was sent to a Christian who taught him the things that Christ taught. Paul, they believe, studied the teachings of other Christians. We know he was sent to Christians to learn.
He does not "balance" out the words of Christ, Andy. If he did, he would be Satantic and need to be striken from the bible.
God doesn't NEED to be balanced by Paul.
Paul teaches what Christ taught, but Paul, as he traveled, and formed churches had questions come up that required him to go back and pray and study the word of God, and offer answers for. Words that people were not finding easily when they searched the teachings found in what we call the four gospels.
So, what Paul does is explain how to apply the teachings of Christ to every day life. What Paul actually DID was not so different from what any other truly God fearing man of God does.
He studied the scripture.
He prayed.
He guided flocks of believers he believed in his heart God wanted him to guide them.
And, for reasons God alone knows, the letters that Paul wrote back and forth to men became part of Holy Scripture. So, I feel it is safe to assume, that is because Paul's interpretations were correct.
But understand, CHRIST and GOD wrote the bible. NOT a Jewish Roman Citizen who was once known as Saul.
Charles Meadows
New Member
Andy,
I believe if Christians spent 1/2 as much time building up others, and loving like Christ loved them as they do tearing down men like Billy Graham, we would know Christ is returning tomorrow because His word WAS preached to the four corners of the earth.
Obviously this doesn't apply to every Christian.
But I for one agree with this statement in general.
The proof is in the pudding. The world tends to see evangelical Christians (as a whole) to be judgmental and hypocritical. Thereby is our witness compromised.
I believe if Christians spent 1/2 as much time building up others, and loving like Christ loved them as they do tearing down men like Billy Graham, we would know Christ is returning tomorrow because His word WAS preached to the four corners of the earth.
Obviously this doesn't apply to every Christian.
But I for one agree with this statement in general.
The proof is in the pudding. The world tends to see evangelical Christians (as a whole) to be judgmental and hypocritical. Thereby is our witness compromised.
T
TexasSky
Guest
Charles, - Just an FYI - I don't think it applies to every Christian either.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
My point is to remind us of the whole counsel of God, not just the four Gospels isolated from the rest of Scripture. Balance, my friend. </font>[/QUOTE]Yeah, that Jesus guy. He was so imbalanced in his biblical praxis. He didn't condemn people to hell or separate from sinners. What is with that guy? Didn't he read the rest of the NT?
When I say balance, I am not talking about balancing out Jesus and Paul or anyone else; I understand that God is the author of all Scripture, TexasSky - I even stated that in an earlier post. When I say balance, I'm talking about you folks who are so timid as to not use the h-word or say anything negative about anyone (unless it is against other Christians whom you self-righteously deem Pharisees).
TexasSky, you in particular seem to make the worst assumptions about every poster that even slightly disagrees with you. And I'm not talking about this thread - it is evident in just about every thread you participate in.
The Bible talks about love and forgiveness, but it also speaks of the reality of hell and judgment. Jesus in particular taught more about hell than anyone else in Scripture.
The balance I am looking for is not in Scripture itself, but of your selective use of it.
TexasSky, you in particular seem to make the worst assumptions about every poster that even slightly disagrees with you. And I'm not talking about this thread - it is evident in just about every thread you participate in.
The Bible talks about love and forgiveness, but it also speaks of the reality of hell and judgment. Jesus in particular taught more about hell than anyone else in Scripture.
The balance I am looking for is not in Scripture itself, but of your selective use of it.
Marcia
Active Member
Texas Sky, your ranting on about telling people about hell is a straw man, and you are being unfair to charaterize those of us who have problems with what BG didn't say as people who just want to go out and "preach hell." I and others are not saying that. In fact, I've said it twice, but you ignore it.
Actually, you're wrong. Salvation is that we are saved from the wrath of God on sin, which results in hell. What do you think we are saved from?
The daily walk is not really salvation, that's sanctification. And yes, no one is saying we should not say salvation is a personal relationship with Christ. You are being unfair in your accusations and I'm calling you on it. Enough is enough.
Everyone on this board would agree that anytime you have turned on the TV and Billy Graham was preaching you have always heard the Gospel. Faith, repentance, home in heaven, spend eternity seperated from God....etc.. He has always presented a clear message.
I think if we were honest we would all agree that BG has sent those who made decisions back to their home church be it R. Catholic. liberal denominational churches etc...
I think we could all agree that he has had some very questionable associations through the years.On his platform etc....
I think we could all agree that he could have answered the question about Muslims, buddists etc.. without coming across as breathing hellfire. Because he is BG his dodging the question carried more weight throughout the world than it would if either one of us had not been more plain spoken.
Typically his sermons have been way more clear than his answer was on that particular question. That to me doesn't make sense.
Personally, I don't believe there is nothing wrong with stating the fact of hell when witnessing to someone. It just depends on how you do it. The Spirit must lead us.
To paraphrase: Jesus said it would be better to cut your arm off or pull your eye out and enter heaven lame than to risk going to hell.
On another note. For those of you who love to run down fundies who are hung up on things like dress, hair etc... Aren't you behaving just like them when you put them down all the time on the BB. Why don't you show them some of that grace you seem to have so much of? Some people act like its their calling to remind everybody on this board of the hang ups of fundamental believers. What? They don't deserve grace because in some people's oppinion they don't demonstrate any themselves. I'm glad Jesus doesn't operate like that.
Some want to say over and over "we shouldn't judge yet all they do is judge is judge those brethern that are wound a little tighter than others. I'm just saying don't come off with all this "gotta be sensitive" stuff when concerning other religions when some can't even be understanding of their own brethern.
I think if we were honest we would all agree that BG has sent those who made decisions back to their home church be it R. Catholic. liberal denominational churches etc...
I think we could all agree that he has had some very questionable associations through the years.On his platform etc....
I think we could all agree that he could have answered the question about Muslims, buddists etc.. without coming across as breathing hellfire. Because he is BG his dodging the question carried more weight throughout the world than it would if either one of us had not been more plain spoken.
Typically his sermons have been way more clear than his answer was on that particular question. That to me doesn't make sense.
Personally, I don't believe there is nothing wrong with stating the fact of hell when witnessing to someone. It just depends on how you do it. The Spirit must lead us.
To paraphrase: Jesus said it would be better to cut your arm off or pull your eye out and enter heaven lame than to risk going to hell.
On another note. For those of you who love to run down fundies who are hung up on things like dress, hair etc... Aren't you behaving just like them when you put them down all the time on the BB. Why don't you show them some of that grace you seem to have so much of? Some people act like its their calling to remind everybody on this board of the hang ups of fundamental believers. What? They don't deserve grace because in some people's oppinion they don't demonstrate any themselves. I'm glad Jesus doesn't operate like that.
Some want to say over and over "we shouldn't judge yet all they do is judge is judge those brethern that are wound a little tighter than others. I'm just saying don't come off with all this "gotta be sensitive" stuff when concerning other religions when some can't even be understanding of their own brethern.
The Most judgmental on this thread are the Graham defenders. This has been diverted from Graham's errant statement, "I can't judge"
The Church has the authority to tell every repentant sinner that eternal life is theirs and we have the authority to tell every unrepentant sinner who rejects Christ that they will face the eternal wrath of God unless they repent. (John 20:23)
I like and respect Billy Graham but he seems to me to have dodged the question. We have all shown cowardice and this may be the case with him BUT please don't say he was correct. He goofed and it could be his age but a pass he should not get no matter how many good things he has done.
The Church has the authority to tell every repentant sinner that eternal life is theirs and we have the authority to tell every unrepentant sinner who rejects Christ that they will face the eternal wrath of God unless they repent. (John 20:23)
I like and respect Billy Graham but he seems to me to have dodged the question. We have all shown cowardice and this may be the case with him BUT please don't say he was correct. He goofed and it could be his age but a pass he should not get no matter how many good things he has done.
T
TexasSky
Guest
Again -
You people do not KNOW that he "dodged the question" He responsed that they were certainly right about some of what they thought, and then, as he was elaborating on that, his message was lost to "cross chatter," and came back in on the words "to hell" or "in hell". .. no one knows what the rest of his statement was.
As to "sending a Christian back to his Catholic church," I can't think of a better way to reach the Catholics than to send a Catholic back to his church.
You people do not KNOW that he "dodged the question" He responsed that they were certainly right about some of what they thought, and then, as he was elaborating on that, his message was lost to "cross chatter," and came back in on the words "to hell" or "in hell". .. no one knows what the rest of his statement was.
As to "sending a Christian back to his Catholic church," I can't think of a better way to reach the Catholics than to send a Catholic back to his church.