Kingdom Exclusion

[Hope of Glory]

I see scripture where the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom, yet I cannot find the saved not inheriting it.

And you're suggesting that all saved people are righteous?

 

[webdog]

And you're suggesting that all saved people are righteous?

Yes. We are all in Chirst, making us righteous in him. Was not Lot called righteous in the sinful state he was living in?

 

[tinytim]

All saved people are righteous... we are covered with the righteousness of Christ.

Not ours but His...

 

[Lacy Evans]

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[FONT=JGAFHA+TimesNewRoman]I am confused now... I may just be sleepy, but out of one side of his mouth he says believing is all that is needed, and then states that it is not enough for salvation...[/FONT]

[FONT=JGAFHA+TimesNewRoman]From what I found so far NEE teaches Baptism is needed for salvation. Of course if he believed there are 2 types of salvation, then it would make sense.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

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Nee was trying to reconcile the scriptures that say "Believe" with the ones that say "Repent and be baptised."

There is a "salvation" that you get from being baptised. It is the same "salvation" you get from any act of obedience. You get saved from the consequences of disobedience.

Noah was "saved by the water." Water is a symbol of our good works, (worthless without the shedding of blood but priceless when sanctified by the Blood). This refers to daily sanctification and the Christian's walk.

The Children of Israel were "saved" from the influences of Egypt (the world) when they were baptised in the red sea. (The blood having already been adequately and forever applied at the passover)

The ashes of the red heifer (Blood sacrifice) were kept and mixed with water as a sacrifice for regular cleansing (Num 19). (Not an atonement sacrifice).

The types are very consistent. There are several scriptural applications of the word "salvation".




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And what is this belief that I found that NEE received special revelations from God... is Kingdom Exclusion one of them?

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Nee is a very contemporary writer in the chronology of Kingdom authors. He was convinced of the doctrine after he studied Govett, Lang, Pember, etc.

Lacy

 

[Diggin in da Word]

From Witness Lee's book, 'A Brief Definition of the Kingdom of the Heavens'

THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST

When the Lord returns, He will set up His judgment seat in the air to judge all the resurrected and raptured believers. This judgment will not decide the saints’ eternal salvation because their salvation has been settled once for all. This judgment will decide whether or not the believers are qualified to enjoy the manifestation of the kingdom of the heavens as a reward. This judgment will also decide whether or not the believers will need some sort of chastening, some sort of punishment, to help them to ripen. Second Corinthians 5:10 and Romans 14:10 are two verses telling us about this judgment seat. This judgment is different from the eternal judgment of God carried out at the white throne revealed in Revelation 20:11-15. The eternal judgment at the white throne will be to judge all the unbelievers for eternal punishment in the lake of fire. The judgment seat of Christ, however, is not for salvation or eternal perdition but for reward or punishment.
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=%23%22%2DW7%0A

Wow! Same heretical teaching that Faust is teaching... Kingdom Exclusion.

 

[tinytim]

I think I am in over my head here..
I have been saved for over 28 yrs, and raised in Baptist churches all my life, and until about a month ago, I never heard of this.

I'm not sure what it is but a red flag is going off in my soul.
I will do more research as I think of myself as a scholarly type.

But I have to admit some of this sounds like doublespeak to me.

Either a person is saved, or they are not...
that is what The Bible teaches.. there are no inbetweens.

But I will be studying.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

All saved people are righteous... we are covered with the righteousness of Christ.

Not ours but His...

Amen, tim!

 

[Hope of Glory]

Why put a yoke of bondage on those who accept Him early in life?

You mean like the parable of the vineyard workers in which some worked all day and others worked less, yet they were all payed what they had agreed to? Although, I wonder if those who didn't work were rewarded equally?

 

[Lacy Evans]

All saved people are righteous... we are covered with the righteousness of Christ.

Not ours but His...

I keep asking this question over and over but everyone seems to ignore it over and over. So here it is over again one more time.

Does Christ's imputed righteosness to a believer protect that believer from chastening? If I am righteous, then how could I possibly fear chastening? Yet the Bible plainly promises Familial chastening.

Of course we agree that a believer is absolutely righteous in an eternal sense.

But what about in a practical sense? Does every believer behave in a righteous manner in every situation? Of course not. If he behaves in a rebellious, slothful, fleshly manner, does his standing in Christ guarantee him a crown and a cookie? Quite the opposite. His eternal standing and sonship in Christ guarantees him a trip to the woodshed.

I just believe that scripture reveals a slightly more serious woodshed is possible that some think.

Lacy

 

[webdog]

Was Lot righteous? Would he have been excluded from the Kingdom while a resident of Sodom and Gamorah?

 

[tinytim]

I keep asking this question over and over but everyone seems to ignore it over and over. So here it is over again one more time.

Does Christ's imputed righteosness to a believer protect that believer from chastening? If I am righteous, then how could I possibly fear chastening? Yet the Bible plainly promises Familial chastening.

Of course we agree that a believer is absolutely righteous in an eternal sense.

But what about in a practical sense? Does every believer behave in a righteous manner in every situation? Of course not. If he behaves in a rebellious, slothful, fleshly manner, does his standing in Christ guarantee him a crown and a cookie? Quite the opposite. His eternal standing and sonship in Christ guarantees him a trip to the woodshed.

I just believe that scripture reveals a slightly more serious woodshed is possible that some think.

Lacy

I do beleive in chastening... just not kicked out of the house type...
I think I will go to bed for the night.. I have enjoyed the challenging dialogue.

tim

 

[Lacy Evans]

I'm not sure what it is but a red flag is going off in my soul.

I will do more research as I think of myself as a scholarly type.

I nearly whipped Joey Faust when he first showed me a GH Lang book. I wanted to put a "red flag" on his eye. But I got over it after about 16 hours of debating and after seeing every one of my arguments go down in flames.

Look here for some free books. http://www.schoettlepublishing.com/booksonline.htm

It won't hurt to look. I highly reccommend the Panton book called "The Judgment Seat of Christ " and the Roadhouse book "Believers' Sharing or Forfeiting Christ's Glorious Reign "


God Bless, Lacy

 

[webdog]

Does Christ's imputed righteosness to a believer protect that believer from chastening? If I am righteous, then how could I possibly fear chastening? Yet the Bible plainly promises Famili al chastening.

Where do you get that all chastening is exclusion from the Kingdom...and even spending a thousand years in hell? If my son takes a cookie after I tell him not to...do I throw him out of the house for the next 80 years?

 

[Lacy Evans]

Was Lot righteous? Would he have been excluded from the Kingdom while a resident of Sodom and Gamorah?

Lot repented. Why not discuss his wife like the NT does. She was saved from Sodom's destruction but lost in another way because she was disobedient. What other possible application of the story of Lot's wife could there be for saved folks? Why warn believers (disciples) to "Remember Lot's wife?" Luke 17:32

Lacy

 

[Diggin in da Word]

The chastening of God does not mean exclusion from the Kingdom.

It means loss of rewards, not punishment as some would imply.

Even Paul wrote some would suffer loss. He did not say they would suffer punishment, but loss. That loss is loss of rewards. Those rewards are crowns.

The Crown of Life James 1:12
The Crown Incorruptible 1 Cor. 9:24 - 27
The Crown of Rejoicing 1 Thes. 2:19, 20
The Crown of Righteousness 2 Timothy 4:5 - 8
The Crown of Glory 1 Peter 5: 2 - 4

The Crown of Life is promised for loving the Lord. A true Christian loves the Lord. Looking at this verse, it would appear that this is a crown that cannot be lost. After all, a Christian is one who is Christ-like. One who loves the Lord.

The Crown Incorruptible is given to one who strives for the mastery. One who practices self-control.

The Crown of Rejoicing is a soul winnner's crown. This is given to those who are rewarded for sharing the witness of Christ and His love for mankind on the cross of Calvary.

The Crown of Righteousness is given to those who anticipate the coming of the Lord to rapture His saints.

The Crown of Glory is given to faithful ministers who preach the truth and do not lead the flock astray with false doctrines such as Kingdom Exclusion.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Where do you get that all chastening is exclusion from the Kingdom...and even spending a thousand years in hell? If my son takes a cookie after I tell him not to...do I throw him out of the house for the next 80 years?

You are putting words in my mouth. I am simply pointing out that Our standing in Christ doesn't protect us from chastening in the same way as it protects us from absolute eternal separation from God and torment in the LOF.

Of course there are degrees of chastening. (few stripes, many stripes)Luke 12. In this world and in the next.

But the scriptures' warnings reveal sins (that every Christian is capable of committing) that are far worse than "stealing a cookie" Being unmerciful, Fornication, murder, slander, envy (Gal 5,Eph 5, 1 Cor 6, etc.) If we are found in these sins and found in an unrepentant state, then the warnings apply without dillution. A man will reap what he sows. God is not mocked.

KJV Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I just hate to see the doctrine of works portrayed as the way to the Kingdom.

The thing about it is, that so many people try to require works for salvation because they see passages requiring works to enter the Kingdom. Our spiritual salvation is a gift and is based on "believe"; but, works are exactly what is required to enter the Kingdom.

John 3:3 tells us that unless a man is born from above [saved], he cannot see the Kingdoml. But, John 3:5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit [works], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

You are putting words in my mouth. I am simply pointing out that Our standing in Christ doesn't protect us from chastening in the same way as it protects us from absolute eternal separation from God and torment in the LOF.

Of course there are degrees of chastening. (few stripes, many stripes)Luke 12. In this world and in the next.

But the scriptures' warnings reveal sins (that every Christian is capable of committing) that are far worse than "stealing a cookie" Being unmerciful, Fornication, murder, slander, envy (Gal 5,Eph 5, 1 Cor 6, etc.) If we are found in these sins and found in an unrepentant state, then the warnings apply without dillution. A man will reap what he sows. God is not mocked.

Those sins when looked at in the light of 1 Corinthians 5, only bring destruction of the flesh to the Christian, not a banishment of the soul.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Either a person is saved, or they are not...
that is what The Bible teaches.. there are no inbetweens.

Well, you are correct that a person is either spiritually saved or unsaved. But, just as there were disciples (saved) that were separate from the unsaved, there were also subsets of the disciples: The apostles. There were even subsets of the apostles in that some were able to go on with him, and one that was "loved" by him. In the same way, out of those who are saved, there are those who will receive crowns, and some will rule over 5 cities and some over 10.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

The thing about it is, that so many people try to require works for salvation because they see passages requiring works to enter the Kingdom. Our spiritual salvation is a gift and is based on "believe"; but, works are exactly what is required to enter the Kingdom.

John 3:3 tells us that unless a man is born from above [saved], he cannot see the Kingdoml. But, John 3:5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit [works], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 19:34 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

It is not our works, but Christ's finished work on the cross. There is the water Christ was speaking of... Directly from the side of the Savior. Christ was pointing to the cross in his discourse with Nicodemus by night!