Kingdom Exclusion

In other words, you have no answer that can refute the truth I have presented.

 

OK, I have done some digging around today.. .I knew I had heard of Watchman Nee, and Witness Lee.

These two individuals have been listed in this thread as upstanding theologians according to those in this thread that believes in kingdom exclusion aka kingdom purgatory.

I followed Linda's link to Watchman Nee.... http://www.watchmannee.org/
at the bottom of the page is a link that shows that Watchman Nee's website is a ministry of Living Stream Ministry.

The same bunch that supported Witness Lee and his translation of the Recovery Version.... Now those that know me here, know that I am not a version onlyist, but at the same time, I do recognize that the recovery version is a dangerous version, and is along the line of the NWT.

In the recovery version's study notes on Matt. 28:19 Witness Lee writes, "Baptism brings the repentant people out of their old state into a new one by terminating their old life and germinating them with the new life of Christ that they may become the kingdom people."

He goes on to say, "without the visible baptism by water, the invisible baptism by spirit is abstract and impractical. Both are needed."

They beleive baptism is needed for salvation... thus adding to the blood of Jesus.

There is more to show that these two individuals are in fact promoting a salvation by works...I can post more if needed.

Now are you sure you want to be associated with these heretics....

Kingdom Exclusion is a doctrine of works.. And Jesus made the promise that those that come to him he will in nowise cast out.
John 6:37
(37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Take it up with God...

 

Having eyes to see, they see not.

 

See there again you make a blanket statement and try to apply it to all Christians.

I was saved in 1988, but it wasn't until very recently that I longed for the return of Christ. I know several Christians that say if He comes back fine, but I wish He would delay His coming for a while so I can experience _________ (you can fill in the blank). They long more for the experiences of this life than the longing for Christ to return.

Yet they are just as saved as anyone else.

Okay you contradict yourself in your own post. First you say that the groom clothed the bride, but then you admit that Rebecca actually clothed herself. Which is is? Did Isaac clothe her or did she clothe herself?

And your point that the garment is provided by the groom does not negate what we have been saying. God's grace does not cease after eternal salvation is complete. God's grace is the ONLY way we can do ANYTHING that is approved.

God's grace is God doing for man what He requires of man and then giving him credit as if he did it Himself.

Of course the garments are provided for us. Again look in the book of Ruth and you will see that Ruth's work was provided for her and she was to stay in her area.

Our works are laid out beforehand (Ephesians 2:10) and all we have to do is die to self and allow the Spirit to do them through our vessel. And if we do that God will credit our account as if we did the work ourselves thefore we can clothe ourselves in the righteousness of the saints.

Paul said "I" have finished the race. And "I" have fought the good fight. Do you actually think Paul that "he" did that? Of course not. He knew it was done on his behalf, but he was given credit for it.

 

I know they are two different people.
Here is a link describing their work together...
http://www.lsm.org/

But apparently they believed the same...
Lee says that Baptism is needed for salvation... do you beleive that?

They are your heros. I say they taught false doctrine, for only the blood of Jesus is needed for salvation.

I don't care to set under anyone's teaching that teaches a works salvation (baptism for salvation)

I have the recovery version, and it is all through the study notes. Witness Lee taught a false doctrine... and apparently Watchman Nee was right there beside him teaching it as well.

And these are people we are supposed to respect enough to believe this doctrine of exclusion?

 

Tim, with all due respect I think you have jumped the gun on this issue.

I have read a couple of Watchman Nee's books and while I don't agree with everything he has some terrific things to say. I admit I have never read any of Witness Lee's material.

However just going off what you have posted I think you have misjudged what is being presented.

He's not saying both are needed for eternal salvation, because both Watchman Nee (I am sure) and Witness Lee (I am almost as sure as he was a student of Nee I believe) do not equate eternal salvation and the kingdom as you do.

So you are putting words in their mouths that they would not agree with, because eternal salvation and the kingdom are separate subjects.

Most Baptists all but swear by Matthew Henry, but you think is was 100% accurate on everything he wrote, taught and believed? I doubt seriously that you would answer in the postive to that question, so is Matthew Henry a heritic?

Not entirely. It's a doctrine of faith and works just as the book of James tells us.

Again I can prove just about anything I want to prove if I am willing to just rip a verse out of Scripture and separate it from its context.

 

More on Witness Lee and Watchman Nee:
Witness Lee (1905-1997), a bondslave of Christ Jesus, labored selflessly throughout his entire life and poured out his being for his Lord's interest. Born in 1905 in northern China, he was raised in a Christian family. At age 19 he was fully captured for Christ and immediately consecrated himself to preach the gospel for the rest of his life.

Early in his service, Witness Lee met Watchman Nee, a renowned preacher, teacher, and writer. Witness Lee labored together with Watchman Nee under his direction. In 1934 Watchman Nee entrusted Witness Lee with the responsibility for his publication operation, called the Shanghai Gospel Bookroom.

In 1949, Witness Lee was sent by Watchman Nee and his other co-workers to Taiwan to insure that the things delivered to them by the Lord would not be lost. Watchman Nee instructed Witness Lee to continue the former's publishing operation abroad as the Taiwan Gospel Bookroom, which has been publicly recognized as the publisher of Watchman Nee's works outside China. Witness Lee's work in Taiwan manifested the Lord's abundant blessing. From a mere 350 believers, newly fled from the mainland, the churches in Taiwan grew to 20,000 in five years.

In 1962 Witness Lee felt led of the Lord to come to the United States, settling in California. During his 35 years of service in the U.S., he ministered in weekly meetings and weekend conferences, delivering several thousand spoken messages. Much of his speaking has since been published as over 400 titles. Many of these have been translated into over 14 languages. He gave his last public conference in February 1997 at the age of 91.

Witness Lee's ministry emphasizes the experience of Christ as life and the practical oneness of the believers as the Body of Christ. Stressing the importance of attending to both these matters, he led the churches under his care to grow in Christian life and function. He was unbending in his conviction that God's goal is not narrow sectarianism but the Body of Christ. In time, believers began to meet simply as the church in their localities in response to this conviction. These local churches were soon established throughout all the Western hemisphere. In recent years a number of new churches have been raised up in Russia and in many eastern European countries.

http://www.witnesslee.com/

 

No contradiction. Rebecca put her clothes on, but they were clothes provided by her groom. He clothed her by providing the clothes.

Having eyes to see...

 

In the RV, Lee writes further:"to baptize people into the triune God is to bring them into spiritual and mystical union with Him"

UHhh.. NO! Believing on the finished work of Christ brings us into a union with God.

Not Baptism.

It is all through the RV notes written by Lee, which was taught and trusted by Nee.

Lee taught a works salvation.... a false doctrine.

 

It doesn't matter, the website above shows that Nee is connected to Lee. They worked together...

So you support Nee, but not Lee? Is that what you are saying? Even though they worked together and apparently taught the same thing. Nee turned over his ministry to Lee!!!!

Maybe God allowed you to make the typo to show us the connection between kingdom exclusion and the false doctrine of salvation by baptism.

 

Are you kidding me. Seriously?

If I provide you some clothes and you don't put them on then did I still clothe you? Of course not I just gave you some clothes, but you decided to not wear them. The veil was provided, but Rebecca has to put it own. She clothed herself.

Again Revelation 19:8 tells us that we are to array ourselves. We are to clothe ourselves. And we do this by dying to ourselves and allowing the Spirit to work through us. If we don't do this then we are not clothing ourselves and will not have a wedding garment when the time comes just like the guest who was taken to the outer darkness.

 

Then why did he teach that Baptism was necessary to be in union with God?

In the RV, Lee writes further:"to baptize people into the triune God is to bring them into spiritual and mystical union with Him"

This is directly from His study notes in the Recovery Version.. at Matt. 28:19

If he didn't believe it, then why did he write it?

I admit, the RV is the only resource I have from him, but it sure does sound like he taught that water baptism is needed for salvation... At least that is what he wrote...