Lacy Evans
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Diggin in da Word said:
You didn't address any of my questions.
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Kingdom Exclusion
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You didn't address any of my questions.
Diggin in da Word
New Member
Lacy Evans said:verse please.
Good question. I have some ideas. But your question proves nothing and must await the answer to other more pertinate questions before it can be answered. Unless you assume the thing to be proven.
I might say something else. It would likewise make zero sense to you until we solved our other debate.
Lacy
In other words, you have no answer that can refute the truth I have presented.
James_Newman said:Where did we ever state that we were trusting in our works for salvation?
OK, I have done some digging around today.. .I knew I had heard of Watchman Nee, and Witness Lee.
These two individuals have been listed in this thread as upstanding theologians according to those in this thread that believes in kingdom exclusion aka kingdom purgatory.
I followed Linda's link to Watchman Nee.... http://www.watchmannee.org/
at the bottom of the page is a link that shows that Watchman Nee's website is a ministry of Living Stream Ministry.
The same bunch that supported Witness Lee and his translation of the Recovery Version.... Now those that know me here, know that I am not a version onlyist, but at the same time, I do recognize that the recovery version is a dangerous version, and is along the line of the NWT.
In the recovery version's study notes on Matt. 28:19 Witness Lee writes, "Baptism brings the repentant people out of their old state into a new one by terminating their old life and germinating them with the new life of Christ that they may become the kingdom people."
He goes on to say, "without the visible baptism by water, the invisible baptism by spirit is abstract and impractical. Both are needed."
They beleive baptism is needed for salvation... thus adding to the blood of Jesus.
There is more to show that these two individuals are in fact promoting a salvation by works...I can post more if needed.
Now are you sure you want to be associated with these heretics....
Kingdom Exclusion is a doctrine of works.. And Jesus made the promise that those that come to him he will in nowise cast out.
John 6:37
(37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Take it up with God...
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Lacy Evans
New Member
Diggin in da Word said:The crown of righteousness is given to all who love His appearing. Those who are Christ's look for His appearing, they don't dread it.
Do you really think a backslidden, disobedient, slothful Christian is actively "loving", (or even looking for - my LORD delayeth his coming) Christ's appearing?
Come on man!! Open your eyes and see that a condition (like "who love his appearing" is indeed a condition!
Lacy
Lacy Evans
New Member
Diggin in da Word said:In other words, you have no answer that can refute the truth I have presented.
What truth did you present, I only read a question.
Diggin in da Word
New Member
Lacy Evans said:What truth did you present, I only read a question.
Having eyes to see, they see not.
Those who are Christ's look for His appearing, they don't dread it.
See there again you make a blanket statement and try to apply it to all Christians.
I was saved in 1988, but it wasn't until very recently that I longed for the return of Christ. I know several Christians that say if He comes back fine, but I wish He would delay His coming for a while so I can experience _________ (you can fill in the blank). They long more for the experiences of this life than the longing for Christ to return.
Yet they are just as saved as anyone else.
Check into ancient Jewish customs and you will in fact find that the groom did clothe the bride. He bought the wedding garments, he provided them. Sure Rebecca put her veil on, and Ruth put on her attire, but that attire, just as in the Marriage feast, was provided by the groom. It was not her own garment!
Okay you contradict yourself in your own post. First you say that the groom clothed the bride, but then you admit that Rebecca actually clothed herself. Which is is? Did Isaac clothe her or did she clothe herself?
And your point that the garment is provided by the groom does not negate what we have been saying. God's grace does not cease after eternal salvation is complete. God's grace is the ONLY way we can do ANYTHING that is approved.
God's grace is God doing for man what He requires of man and then giving him credit as if he did it Himself.
Of course the garments are provided for us. Again look in the book of Ruth and you will see that Ruth's work was provided for her and she was to stay in her area.
Our works are laid out beforehand (Ephesians 2:10) and all we have to do is die to self and allow the Spirit to do them through our vessel. And if we do that God will credit our account as if we did the work ourselves thefore we can clothe ourselves in the righteousness of the saints.
Paul said "I" have finished the race. And "I" have fought the good fight. Do you actually think Paul that "he" did that? Of course not. He knew it was done on his behalf, but he was given credit for it.
Lacy Evans
New Member
tinytim said:OK, I have done some digging around today.. .I knew I had heard of Watchman Nee, and Witness Lee.
These two individuals have been listed in this thread as upstanding theologians according to those in this thread that believes in kingdom exclusion aka kingdom purgatory.
I followed Linda's link to Watchman Nee.... http://www.watchmannee.org/
at the bottom of the page is a link that shows that Watchman Nee's website is a ministry of Living Stream Ministry.
The same bunch that supported Witness Lee and his translation of the Recovery Version.... Now those that know me here, know that I am not a version onlyist, but at the same time, I do recognize that the recovery version is a dangerous version, and is along the line of the NWT.
In the recovery version's study notes on Matt. 28:19 Witness Lee writes, "Baptism brings the repentant people out of their old state into a new one by terminating their old life and germinating them with the new life of Christ that they may become the kingdom people."
He goes on to say, "without the visible baptism by water, the invisible baptism by spirit is abstract and impractical. Both are needed."
They beleive baptism is needed for salvation... thus adding to the blood of Jesus.
There is more to show that these two individuals are in fact promoting a salvation by works...I can post more if needed.
Now are you sure you want to be associated with these heretics....
Kingdom Exclusion is a doctrine of works.. And Jesus made the promise that those that come to him he will in nowise cast out.
Take it up with God...
Despite my Typo, Nee and Lee were two very different men. Nee suffered in prison for his faith for twenty years until his death. I'd hate to be the one who indiscriminately referres to a martyr and champion of the faith as a heretic. (Saying that Nee taught justification by works and baptismal regeneration is either a carelessly ignorant mistake or else it is a gross lie) He was certainly closer in doctrine to a traditional Baptist than John Huss, yet Huss is (rightly so) one of our heroes.
Lee is a bit of a crackpot who took his mentor's teaching and added a litthe sumpn-sumpn to it. He is not on my list. IT WAS A TYPO!!!!!! clear enough? Associating Nee with Lee is a bit akin to associating Jesus to Judas! You can't control your disciples. They must make their own decisions and face their own consequences.
Nee's books are awesome. Nee's book "THe Gospel of God" (Vol 3) is one of the best works on this subject. "Salvation of the Soul" is also very good.
Lacy
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Lacy Evans
New Member
Diggin in da Word said:Having eyes to see, they see not.
That's deep Brother, did you make that up on your own?
Lacy Evans said:Despite my Typo, Nee and Lee were two very different men. Nee suffered in prison for his faith for twenty years until his death. I'd hate to be the one who indiscriminately referres to a martyr and champion of the faith as a heretic. He was certainly closer in doctrine to a traditional Baptist (saying that he taught justification by works is either a carelessly ignorant mistake or else it is a gross lie) than John Huss, yet Huss is (rightly so) one of our heroes.
His books are awesome. Lee is a bit of a crackpot who took his mentor's teaching and added a litthe sumpn-sumpn to it. Nee's book "THe Gospel of God" (Vol 3) is one of the best works on this subject. "Salvation of the Soul" is also very good.
Lacy
I know they are two different people.
Here is a link describing their work together...
http://www.lsm.org/
But apparently they believed the same...
Lee says that Baptism is needed for salvation... do you beleive that?
They are your heros. I say they taught false doctrine, for only the blood of Jesus is needed for salvation.
I don't care to set under anyone's teaching that teaches a works salvation (baptism for salvation)
I have the recovery version, and it is all through the study notes. Witness Lee taught a false doctrine... and apparently Watchman Nee was right there beside him teaching it as well.
And these are people we are supposed to respect enough to believe this doctrine of exclusion?
In the recovery version's study notes on Matt. 28:19 Witness Lee writes, "Baptism brings the repentant people out of their old state into a new one by terminating their old life and germinating them with the new life of Christ that they may become the kingdom people."
He goes on to say, "without the visible baptism by water, the invisible baptism by spirit is abstract and impractical. Both are needed."
They beleive baptism is needed for salvation... thus adding to the blood of Jesus.
There is more to show that these two individuals are in fact promoting a salvation by works...I can post more if needed.
Now are you sure you want to be associated with these heretics....
Kingdom Exclusion is a doctrine of works.. And Jesus made the promise that those that come to him he will in nowise cast out.
Take it up with God...
Tim, with all due respect I think you have jumped the gun on this issue.
I have read a couple of Watchman Nee's books and while I don't agree with everything he has some terrific things to say. I admit I have never read any of Witness Lee's material.
However just going off what you have posted I think you have misjudged what is being presented.
He's not saying both are needed for eternal salvation, because both Watchman Nee (I am sure) and Witness Lee (I am almost as sure as he was a student of Nee I believe) do not equate eternal salvation and the kingdom as you do.
So you are putting words in their mouths that they would not agree with, because eternal salvation and the kingdom are separate subjects.
Most Baptists all but swear by Matthew Henry, but you think is was 100% accurate on everything he wrote, taught and believed? I doubt seriously that you would answer in the postive to that question, so is Matthew Henry a heritic?
Kingdom Exclusion is a doctrine of works.
Not entirely. It's a doctrine of faith and works just as the book of James tells us.
John 6:37
(37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Again I can prove just about anything I want to prove if I am willing to just rip a verse out of Scripture and separate it from its context.
More on Witness Lee and Watchman Nee:
Witness Lee (1905-1997), a bondslave of Christ Jesus, labored selflessly throughout his entire life and poured out his being for his Lord's interest. Born in 1905 in northern China, he was raised in a Christian family. At age 19 he was fully captured for Christ and immediately consecrated himself to preach the gospel for the rest of his life.
Early in his service, Witness Lee met Watchman Nee, a renowned preacher, teacher, and writer. Witness Lee labored together with Watchman Nee under his direction. In 1934 Watchman Nee entrusted Witness Lee with the responsibility for his publication operation, called the Shanghai Gospel Bookroom.
In 1949, Witness Lee was sent by Watchman Nee and his other co-workers to Taiwan to insure that the things delivered to them by the Lord would not be lost. Watchman Nee instructed Witness Lee to continue the former's publishing operation abroad as the Taiwan Gospel Bookroom, which has been publicly recognized as the publisher of Watchman Nee's works outside China. Witness Lee's work in Taiwan manifested the Lord's abundant blessing. From a mere 350 believers, newly fled from the mainland, the churches in Taiwan grew to 20,000 in five years.
In 1962 Witness Lee felt led of the Lord to come to the United States, settling in California. During his 35 years of service in the U.S., he ministered in weekly meetings and weekend conferences, delivering several thousand spoken messages. Much of his speaking has since been published as over 400 titles. Many of these have been translated into over 14 languages. He gave his last public conference in February 1997 at the age of 91.
Witness Lee's ministry emphasizes the experience of Christ as life and the practical oneness of the believers as the Body of Christ. Stressing the importance of attending to both these matters, he led the churches under his care to grow in Christian life and function. He was unbending in his conviction that God's goal is not narrow sectarianism but the Body of Christ. In time, believers began to meet simply as the church in their localities in response to this conviction. These local churches were soon established throughout all the Western hemisphere. In recent years a number of new churches have been raised up in Russia and in many eastern European countries.
http://www.witnesslee.com/
Witness Lee (1905-1997), a bondslave of Christ Jesus, labored selflessly throughout his entire life and poured out his being for his Lord's interest. Born in 1905 in northern China, he was raised in a Christian family. At age 19 he was fully captured for Christ and immediately consecrated himself to preach the gospel for the rest of his life.
Early in his service, Witness Lee met Watchman Nee, a renowned preacher, teacher, and writer. Witness Lee labored together with Watchman Nee under his direction. In 1934 Watchman Nee entrusted Witness Lee with the responsibility for his publication operation, called the Shanghai Gospel Bookroom.
In 1949, Witness Lee was sent by Watchman Nee and his other co-workers to Taiwan to insure that the things delivered to them by the Lord would not be lost. Watchman Nee instructed Witness Lee to continue the former's publishing operation abroad as the Taiwan Gospel Bookroom, which has been publicly recognized as the publisher of Watchman Nee's works outside China. Witness Lee's work in Taiwan manifested the Lord's abundant blessing. From a mere 350 believers, newly fled from the mainland, the churches in Taiwan grew to 20,000 in five years.
In 1962 Witness Lee felt led of the Lord to come to the United States, settling in California. During his 35 years of service in the U.S., he ministered in weekly meetings and weekend conferences, delivering several thousand spoken messages. Much of his speaking has since been published as over 400 titles. Many of these have been translated into over 14 languages. He gave his last public conference in February 1997 at the age of 91.
Witness Lee's ministry emphasizes the experience of Christ as life and the practical oneness of the believers as the Body of Christ. Stressing the importance of attending to both these matters, he led the churches under his care to grow in Christian life and function. He was unbending in his conviction that God's goal is not narrow sectarianism but the Body of Christ. In time, believers began to meet simply as the church in their localities in response to this conviction. These local churches were soon established throughout all the Western hemisphere. In recent years a number of new churches have been raised up in Russia and in many eastern European countries.
http://www.witnesslee.com/
Lacy Evans
New Member
tinytim said:I know they are two different people.
Here is a link describing their work together...
http://www.lsm.org/
But apparently they believed the same...
Lee says that Baptism is needed for salvation... do you beleive that?
They are your heros. I say they taught false doctrine, for only the blood of Jesus is needed for salvation.
I don't care to set under anyone's teaching that teaches a works salvation (baptism for salvation)
I have the recovery version, and it is all through the study notes. Witness Lee taught a false doctrine... and apparently Watchman Nee was right there beside him teaching it as well.
And these are people we are supposed to respect enough to believe this doctrine of exclusion?
Quit saying they. I mention SS Craig, WF Roadhouse, Robert Govett, GH Peters, and James even quoted Hudson Taylor, yet you cant stop gravitating to a man who wouldn't even be in the conversation if I hadn't hit the L instead of the N!!!
lacy
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Diggin in da Word
New Member
J. Jump said:See there again you make a blanket statement and try to apply it to all Christians.
I was saved in 1988, but it wasn't until very recently that I longed for the return of Christ. I know several Christians that say if He comes back fine, but I wish He would delay His coming for a while so I can experience _________ (you can fill in the blank). They long more for the experiences of this life than the longing for Christ to return.
Yet they are just as saved as anyone else.
Okay you contradict yourself in your own post. First you say that the groom clothed the bride, but then you admit that Rebecca actually clothed herself. Which is is? Did Isaac clothe her or did she clothe herself?
And your point that the garment is provided by the groom does not negate what we have been saying. God's grace does not cease after eternal salvation is complete. God's grace is the ONLY way we can do ANYTHING that is approved.
God's grace is God doing for man what He requires of man and then giving him credit as if he did it Himself.
Of course the garments are provided for us. Again look in the book of Ruth and you will see that Ruth's work was provided for her and she was to stay in her area.
Our works are laid out beforehand (Ephesians 2:10) and all we have to do is die to self and allow the Spirit to do them through our vessel. And if we do that God will credit our account as if we did the work ourselves thefore we can clothe ourselves in the righteousness of the saints.
Paul said "I" have finished the race. And "I" have fought the good fight. Do you actually think Paul that "he" did that? Of course not. He knew it was done on his behalf, but he was given credit for it.
No contradiction. Rebecca put her clothes on, but they were clothes provided by her groom. He clothed her by providing the clothes.
Having eyes to see...
J. Jump said:Tim, with all due respect I think you have jumped the gun on this issue.
I have read a couple of Watchman Nee's books and while I don't agree with everything he has some terrific things to say. I admit I have never read any of Witness Lee's material.
However just going off what you have posted I think you have misjudged what is being presented.
He's not saying both are needed for eternal salvation, because both Watchman Nee (I am sure) and Witness Lee (I am almost as sure as he was a student of Nee I believe) do not equate eternal salvation and the kingdom as you do.
So you are putting words in their mouths that they would not agree with, because eternal salvation and the kingdom are separate subjects.
Most Baptists all but swear by Matthew Henry, but you think is was 100% accurate on everything he wrote, taught and believed? I doubt seriously that you would answer in the postive to that question, so is Matthew Henry a heritic?
Not entirely. It's a doctrine of faith and works just as the book of James tells us.
[/size][/b]
Again I can prove just about anything I want to prove if I am willing to just rip a verse out of Scripture and separate it from its context.
In the RV, Lee writes further:"to baptize people into the triune God is to bring them into spiritual and mystical union with Him"
UHhh.. NO! Believing on the finished work of Christ brings us into a union with God.
Not Baptism.
It is all through the RV notes written by Lee, which was taught and trusted by Nee.
Lee taught a works salvation.... a false doctrine.
Lacy Evans said:Quit saying they. I mention SS Craig, WF Roadhouse, Robert Govett, GH Peters, and James even quoted Hudson Taylor, yet you cant stop gravitating to a man who wouldn't even be in the conversation if I hadn't hit the L instead of the N!!!
lacy
It doesn't matter, the website above shows that Nee is connected to Lee. They worked together...
So you support Nee, but not Lee? Is that what you are saying? Even though they worked together and apparently taught the same thing. Nee turned over his ministry to Lee!!!!
Maybe God allowed you to make the typo to show us the connection between kingdom exclusion and the false doctrine of salvation by baptism.
Lacy Evans
New Member
tinytim said:Lee taught a works salvation.... a false doctrine.
This is a lie! Shame on you!
From "Gospel Dialogue" (Right here in my hand!) 1975 Christian Fellowship Publishers, Inc.p 140 (emphasis mine)
Now someone may suggest that even though salvation does not depend on hope, confession, works, or prayer, nevertheless only he who believes and is baptised is saved. Such a concept is also incorrect. Yes, Mark 16:16 does in fact state that "He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved," But we should notice what the word "saved" points to. The Bible mentions several kinds of salvation such as eternal salvation, believer's daily salvation, saved from affliction, and physical deliverance, and salvation of the soul. The salvation which is related to baptism refers especially to being saved from this sinful world. This is different from having eternal life. Having eternal life is a personal acceptance of life eternal, but baptism is to be saved out of the evil system of the world. One who believes and yet is not baptised has eternal life IN HIM, but he will still be viewed by the world as an unsaved person. He must rise up and be baptised-declaring thereby that he has severed his relationship with the evil world-before he will be acknowledged by the people that he is a saved person.
As to having eternal life-that is, coming out of judgment and being eternally saved-all he needs is faith and nothing else . . .
Note: In China watchman Nee and other Christians suffered (and still suffer) terrible persecution after a public confession of faith like baptism. He died in prison because of his faith. This comment came from a whole chapter devoted to the truth of Salvation by Faith plus nothing including Baptism
So tiny tim you need to chill out before you get struck by lightning.
Lacy
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Rebecca put her clothes on, but they were clothes provided by her groom. He clothed her by providing the clothes.
Are you kidding me. Seriously?
If I provide you some clothes and you don't put them on then did I still clothe you? Of course not I just gave you some clothes, but you decided to not wear them. The veil was provided, but Rebecca has to put it own. She clothed herself.
Again Revelation 19:8 tells us that we are to array ourselves. We are to clothe ourselves. And we do this by dying to ourselves and allowing the Spirit to work through us. If we don't do this then we are not clothing ourselves and will not have a wedding garment when the time comes just like the guest who was taken to the outer darkness.
Lacy Evans
New Member
tinytim said:It doesn't matter, the website above shows that Nee is connected to Lee. They worked together... [/b]
IT DOESN"T MATTER?????? Winning a debate at all costs, even if it means bearing false witness against a brother who gave everything he had to Jesus so he could win the prize doesn't matter?
That makes me want to vomit!
Lacy
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Lacy Evans said:This is a lie! Shame on you!
So tiny tim you need to chill out before you get struck by lightning.
Lacy
Then why did he teach that Baptism was necessary to be in union with God?
In the RV, Lee writes further:"to baptize people into the triune God is to bring them into spiritual and mystical union with Him"
This is directly from His study notes in the Recovery Version.. at Matt. 28:19
If he didn't believe it, then why did he write it?
I admit, the RV is the only resource I have from him, but it sure does sound like he taught that water baptism is needed for salvation... At least that is what he wrote...
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