Diggin in da Word
New Member
Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the church. That is speaking of those who go through the tribulation period.
The church has already been raptured.
The church has already been raptured.
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Kingdom Exclusion
- Thread starter Lacy Evans
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Lacy Evans
New Member
Prove this statement please.Diggin in da Word said:
It's a nice theory (unless you are one of the poor folks in the trib who have to get saved by works) but it's not scriptural.
lacy
Diggin in da Word
New Member
How about rightly dividing the Word? You will find Jesus is speaking to His disciples in Matthew 24. You will also find that He is speaking of those left after the Rapture of the Church in Matthew 24
Lacy Evans
New Member
Firstly, I can't see how it makes any possible difference whether he is directly addressing Christians before or during the Trib. If a person gets saved during the trib (or before and gets left behind because of disobedience) is he not part of "the church"?Diggin in da Word said:
He is speaking (as you correctly stated) to dis-i-ples! Luke 12 says the same thing except the portion is with the unbelievers (as opposed to believers) this is spoken directly to Peter (without the apocolyptic context) who is obviously considered a believer.
Secondly, do you believe folks in the trib get saved (or maintain it) by not beating their fellowservants and not getting drunk? Poor folks in the trib. They don't have a snowballs chance because there is none that doeth good, no not one!
Lacy
Diggin in da Word said:
It has everything to do with the church, for Jesus is speaking about His OWN servants. Are not we in the church age His servants?
Do you wish to be found "faithful and wise" when He comes?
Then take heed and be not like the wicked SERVANTS who look for His coming only with fear and trepidation.
Speaking to His disciples? Are not WE His disciples?
Servants?*** Note what Paul calls himself;
Ro 1:1
¶ Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
***Note what it is said of David;
Ac 4:25
Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
***Note what is said of ALL Christians;
1Co 7:22
For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
***Note what James calls himself;
Jas 1:1
¶ James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
***Note what Peter calls himself;
2Pe 1:1
¶ Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
***Note what Jude calls himself;
Jude 1:1
¶ Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
***And finally what John calls himself;
Re 1:1
¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Oh! that I would be found a faithful and wise servant of Jesus Christ at His coming.
My friends. This doctrine is true and sobering. Holy living as a child of God is SERIOUS business. Take it not lightly as so many do in this Laodicean age. Lest when He comes, and He WILL come, He finds you ashamed at His coming and unfaithful.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
1Pe 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
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Diggin in da Word
New Member
avJim,
At the time that the events of Matthew 24 take place, the church, the true believers in Christ will have been raptured off of the earth. The church will not go through those tribulations 'such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.'
We have an assurance that the church will not be in those tribulations.
At the time that the events of Matthew 24 take place, the church, the true believers in Christ will have been raptured off of the earth. The church will not go through those tribulations 'such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.'
We have an assurance that the church will not be in those tribulations.
James_Newman
New Member
This is probably a topic for another thread, but we need to make sure that our assurance is based on the word and not popular teaching. Most of us that believe in kingdom exclusion do believe in the rapture, but I don't believe it is unconditional. Jesus said to watch and pray that we will be accounted worthy to escape all the things that are going to come to pass, so escaping the tribulation via translation would seem to be based on the condition of being accounted worthy.
Diggin in da Word
New Member
The doctrine of Kingdom Exclusion where certain Christians who have trusted Christ as Lord and Savior will not enter the kingdom will be cast out as in the parable of the unprofitable servant is nothing but hogwash!
Jesus Christ Himself said 'All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.'
For Him to cast them out of the kingdom, He would be going against His own promise.
Jesus Christ Himself said 'All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.'
For Him to cast them out of the kingdom, He would be going against His own promise.
James_Newman
New Member
You have to read that verse in context, brother.
John 6:37-40
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus is speaking of the believer being accepted on the last day based on nothing but the blood of Christ. You don't have to be accounted worthy to be raised up on the last day, its a free gift. You just have to believe. But the last day is at the end of the thousand years, when death and hell give up the dead that are in them, and every man is judged according to their works, and those not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. Then it says that God is going to wipe away their tears and there will be no more death. But reigning in the kingdom is a reward for obedience. An unprofitable servant will receive an unprofitable servants reward, and thats not hogwash.
John 6:37-40
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus is speaking of the believer being accepted on the last day based on nothing but the blood of Christ. You don't have to be accounted worthy to be raised up on the last day, its a free gift. You just have to believe. But the last day is at the end of the thousand years, when death and hell give up the dead that are in them, and every man is judged according to their works, and those not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. Then it says that God is going to wipe away their tears and there will be no more death. But reigning in the kingdom is a reward for obedience. An unprofitable servant will receive an unprofitable servants reward, and thats not hogwash.
Diggin in da Word
New Member
My gift of salvation and the promise to enter His kingdom was given to me at the moment I placed my trust in Him (as with all Christians). And the gifts and calling of God are without repentance
Hope of Glory
New Member
Well, you at least have part of it right. Your salvation was secure the moment you believed in him. But, the promise of the Kingdom is conditional upon your behavior. It is a promise, but not an unconditional one like your salvation is.
BTW, what is your hope? Do you hope that you're saved?
BTW, what is your hope? Do you hope that you're saved?
Diggin in da Word
New Member
My hope is found in nothing less than Jesus Christ Himself and that precious blood that He shed on that cruel tree.
His Word tells us that all who love His appearing will receive the crown of righteousness. There is a crown every single christian will wear. For all who are His look for His appearing.
So, I and all others found in Him are promised to enter that kingdom to rule and reign with Him.
His Word also tells us He hath made us kings and priests unto Himself. That word hath is a past tense word, not future. He did not promise we will one day be kings and priests, but He has already made us thus.
No, I cannot buy the lies that any of His sheep will be cast into outer darkness. That any of His sheep will be rejected.
It is the unsaved who will be rejected, not the saved.
His Word tells us that all who love His appearing will receive the crown of righteousness. There is a crown every single christian will wear. For all who are His look for His appearing.
So, I and all others found in Him are promised to enter that kingdom to rule and reign with Him.
His Word also tells us He hath made us kings and priests unto Himself. That word hath is a past tense word, not future. He did not promise we will one day be kings and priests, but He has already made us thus.
No, I cannot buy the lies that any of His sheep will be cast into outer darkness. That any of His sheep will be rejected.
It is the unsaved who will be rejected, not the saved.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Diggin in da Word, ,
Lacy, and Jim both are right. They saying Matthew 24 is speak to us as followers of Christ.
Also, Christ says, 'Ye', 'You' find about 19 times in whole context of Matthew 24. Even, also in Matthew 25 always apply to us as Christ's followers either Jew or Gentile.
I know many baptists dislike Matthew 24 and 25 because of conditional. But, that is what Christ actuals saying, we have to accept His words.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Lacy, and Jim both are right. They saying Matthew 24 is speak to us as followers of Christ.
Also, Christ says, 'Ye', 'You' find about 19 times in whole context of Matthew 24. Even, also in Matthew 25 always apply to us as Christ's followers either Jew or Gentile.
I know many baptists dislike Matthew 24 and 25 because of conditional. But, that is what Christ actuals saying, we have to accept His words.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Hope of Glory said:
The Solid Rock
Words: Edward Mote, circa 1834; Music: Solid Rock, William B. Bradbury, 1863
My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly trust in Jesus’ Name.
Refrain
On Christ the solid Rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand;
All other ground is sinking sand.
When darkness seems to hide His face,
I rest on His unchanging grace.
In every high and stormy gale,
My anchor holds within the veil.
Refrain
His oath, His covenant, His blood,
Support me in the whelming flood.
When all around my soul gives way,
He then is all my Hope and Stay.
Refrain
When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh may I then in Him be found.
Dressed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne.
Refrain
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Lacy,
The context of Matthew 18:23-34 do not mentioned of millennial exclusion, because 'a thousand years' is not find there. That passage is talking about forgive. I understand what you trying to tell me of "...till he should pay all that was due unto him", prove that the word, 'till' is speak of temporary. But, this does not take into literally. Christ gives us the picture with illustration, if we do not forgive them, then God will NOT forgive us. God can punish us, if we do not forgive them. If you think verse 34 takes literal, then that mean we have to find way to pay the due back WHILE we are in the hell at the same time till all are pay off first then get out of the hell. Same with as what Roman Catholic teaching on purgatory.
Impossible for person who is in hell can do anything to pay all debts(sins) back to Christ or any person. A person is already struck in hell. Hell is a reserved place await for the judgment day. SO, hell shall be cast into the lake of fire. Hell is an everlasting punishment seperate from God. Because, hell SHALL BE CAST INTO the lake of fire follow great white throne of Rev. 20:11-15.
Matt. 18:35 shows us, IF we do not forgive them, then God would NOT forgive us, he will cast us away as punishment. That is a serious warning.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
The context of Matthew 18:23-34 do not mentioned of millennial exclusion, because 'a thousand years' is not find there. That passage is talking about forgive. I understand what you trying to tell me of "...till he should pay all that was due unto him", prove that the word, 'till' is speak of temporary. But, this does not take into literally. Christ gives us the picture with illustration, if we do not forgive them, then God will NOT forgive us. God can punish us, if we do not forgive them. If you think verse 34 takes literal, then that mean we have to find way to pay the due back WHILE we are in the hell at the same time till all are pay off first then get out of the hell. Same with as what Roman Catholic teaching on purgatory.
Impossible for person who is in hell can do anything to pay all debts(sins) back to Christ or any person. A person is already struck in hell. Hell is a reserved place await for the judgment day. SO, hell shall be cast into the lake of fire. Hell is an everlasting punishment seperate from God. Because, hell SHALL BE CAST INTO the lake of fire follow great white throne of Rev. 20:11-15.
Matt. 18:35 shows us, IF we do not forgive them, then God would NOT forgive us, he will cast us away as punishment. That is a serious warning.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
James_Newman
New Member
Diggin in da Word said:
2 Timothy 4:7-8
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
What does that mean, love His appearing? Will this man love His appearing?
Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
What about these?
Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
You are mixing apples and oranges. Loving His appearing is not how we get saved. We get saved by believing on Him. Only then can we look to His coming again in hope. But if we are not watching and praying to be accounted worthy and to stand before Him, should we really presume that we will love His appearing? We may love the idea of His appearing, but when He appears, we may be ashamed at the judgement seat. Before Paul ever confessed that he was confident that he had a crown waiting for him, he said this:
Philippians 3:8-14
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
It was only at the end of his ministry when he had run a good race that he could say that he knew he had a crown laid up for him. Sometimes even kings lose their kingdoms.
Diggin in da Word
New Member
James,
Just because they called Him Lord did not mean that He was Lord in their lives.
We find proof of this in Matthew 7. 'Not all who call me Lord...I never knew you.'
Christ is not going to cast anyone that He knew into outer darkness.
Many will think they are His servants because they did wonderful religious works, because they claimed to cast out devils, and because they preached, yet they never truly placed their trust in Jesus Christ and His shed blood. Those are the unprofitable servants.
But those who have accepted Christ and placed their trust in Him and His finished work on Golgotha, will enter that glorious kingdom.
Just because they called Him Lord did not mean that He was Lord in their lives.
We find proof of this in Matthew 7. 'Not all who call me Lord...I never knew you.'
Christ is not going to cast anyone that He knew into outer darkness.
Many will think they are His servants because they did wonderful religious works, because they claimed to cast out devils, and because they preached, yet they never truly placed their trust in Jesus Christ and His shed blood. Those are the unprofitable servants.
But those who have accepted Christ and placed their trust in Him and His finished work on Golgotha, will enter that glorious kingdom.
Hope of Glory
New Member
But, Diggin, what are you hoping for? Are you hoping that you are saved?
Diggin in da Word said:
It appears that your question has already been answered by Diggin in da Word--why do you keep on asking?Hope of Glory said:
When one places his trust in Christ alone for salvation, we no longer "hope" we are saved, we KNOW we are saved.
1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Agreed and compared in Mark when His disciples were disputing among themselves about being the greatest in the kingdom and John mentioned the others that were casting out devils there who weren’t following them. Jesus went on and instructed while picking up a child and suggested a "serious baptism"
for whosoever offended one of those little ones that believes in Him. (Mar 9:42) And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
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