Kingdom Exclusion

[Hope of Glory]

When one places his trust in Christ alone for salvation, we no longer "hope" we are saved, we KNOW we are saved.

Well, we agree on this statement, but it doesn't answer the question of "What is the hope of a Christian?" What are you hoping for, since it's not your spiritual salvation.

 

[Linda64]

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

 

[Hope of Glory]

So, you're looking for the blessed hope and the glorious appearing.

Still doesn't answer what you're hoping for.

Are you hoping that you're saved?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

HoG,

I am not sure what you are digging for, or what you may be insuating here, but my wife has told you she is saved, as has DidW.

Yet, you keep questioning their salvation by asking if they hope they are saved.

Just what is your agenda?

 

[Lacy Evans]

HoG,

I am not sure what you are digging for, or what you may be insuating here, but my wife has told you she is saved, as has DidW.

Yet, you keep questioning their salvation by asking if they hope they are saved.

Just what is your agenda?

Easy big fella. He's not questioning her salvation. He is pointing out an inconsistency in their statements. Follow the discussion. They say that they are hoping in something that they already have. That their "blessed hope" is a part of the free gift of grace. Why hope for something you have already obtained?

However the Bible makes a clear distinction between the gift and the prize. We do not "hope" for eternal salvation. We do however hope to unashamed at his coming (Phil 1:20) We hope to be found "of Christ's house" at his coming and enter into his rest. (Heb 3:6-14)

There are promises that we have not attained to and will only be obtained by patient endurance (Nothing to do with salvation, everything to do with obedience AFTER salvation)-Heb 6:15-19 This hope is the anchor of the Christian soul. God is a rewarder!

Lacy

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Lacy,

Christ is our hope. Paul said this in 1 Timothy 1:1. Now Paul said this even though he was saved and already given the assurance of eternal life in Christ. Yet, Paul said Christ is our hope.

That hope, as my wife put it is Christ at His appearing. Not that we are unsaved as was certainly implied, but that Christ's return certainly should be that which every born again man, wonan and chlid should look to.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Not that we are unsaved as was certainly implied,

Quite the opposite. I assume they are saved, and if so, I know there's nothing that they can ever do to lose that. However, they seemed to imply that was what their hope was.

but that Christ's return certainly should be that which every born again man, wonan and chlid should look to.

So, do you hope that he will return?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

snip snip sinip

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I know He will return. He has promised this in His Word. That is the Blessed Hope. John, on the Isle of Patmos also saw Christ's Return as the Blessed Hope. This is why he stated just before closing his writing, 'Even so, come, Lord :jesus: ."

 

[webdog]

Matthew 25:30, which talks of being cast into outer darkness (not the lake of fire) also does not say that it's forever. So, you have to look at the person of whom this is speaking, the events surrounding the event in question, and the meaning of "outer darkness".

So...what exactly is this "outer darkness" if the Kingdom is here on New Earth?

 

[Lacy Evans]

I know He will return. He has promised this in His Word. That is the Blessed Hope. John, on the Isle of Patmos also saw Christ's Return as the Blessed Hope. This is why he stated just before closing his writing, 'Even so, come, Lord :jesus: ."

I am having a little trouble understanding something. Do you believe that, after salvation, there are absolutely no conditional promises? The reason I ask is because we have repeatedly shown several conditions applied to Kingdom reign and Kingdom entrance. Reward, by definition, can possibly be lost or forfeited.

But it seems that each time we show you (in scripture) a promise that has conditions attached (especially concerning the Judgment Seat of Christ) , that you revert back to the argument of the security of the believer. As far as security of the believer goes, you are preaching to the choir. We all (except for DPT) agree on eternal security, as far as I can tell.

Please deal with the scriptures so we can understand.

lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Lacy,

Not that we are unsaved as was certainly implied. . .

It most certainly was NOT, never, ever, ever, never, in any way, shape, or fashion implied so. Now, it may have been inferred, but, if so, it was mistakenly inferred.

I promise.:saint:

We believe you if you say you are saved. That is between you and God. And you certainly know better than me whether you are saved.

But the question was raised, "What are you hoping in". What is it that you still must attain to? Then the other side (I can't remember who now) said, basically, everything (including Kingdom entrance and Kingdom reign) is included for free with eternal salvation.

What is a Christian's hope? What is the anchor of his soul? What holds him down in the storm and keeps him on the strait path? It is the hope of reward. He MUST believe that [God] is, and that He is a rewarder of those (Christians) who diligently seek him.

Lacy

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The problem is, the word hope is being looked at with 21st century eyes. It is being viewed in the light of what our dictionaries of modern times describe it as. That is, something unsure, i.e. 'I hope Uncle Fred gets to come to the family reunion', or 'I hope the boss will give me a good bonus in my Christmas package this year.'

The hope in the Word of God is not thus. In Hebrews 6:19, it is called 'an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast.' The Hope we have is a surety. A realization. The Christian does not, or should not, have any doubts whatsoever about the promises written in the precious pages we call the Word of God.

 

[James_Newman]

Here is a promise.

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

If you believe this is an unconditional promise made to every Christian, then you must believe that all Christians love the Lord. Well, what does the bible say?

John 14:21-24
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

According to Jesus, if we do not keep His commandments, we do not love Him. If the kingdom is promised to them that love Him, then the kingdom is promised to them that keep His commandments. Keeping His commandments is not how we are saved, is it?

 

[webdog]

I asked this on the bottom of page 13 and just wanted to make sure it doesn't get overlooked...

So...what exactly is this "outer darkness" if the Kingdom is here on New Earth?

 

[James_Newman]

I believe outer darkness is hell. Jesus says those who are unfaithful will receive their portion with the unbeliever. Others believe outer darkness is some place outside the kingdom, but not hell. I haven't seen any scripture that supports that idea.

 

[Lacy Evans]

The hope in the Word of God is not thus. In Hebrews 6:19, it is called 'an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast.' The Hope we have is a surety. A realization. The Christian does not, or should not, have any doubts whatsoever about the promises written in the precious pages we call the Word of God.

Brother have you even read Hebrews 6 lately? After the 1st two verses, barely anything is sure. see v.8, 12, & 15. It is all based upon bearing fruit, labouring in love, being diligent, not being slothful, patient endurance.

Heb 6:9 gives us the absolute context. "Things that accompany salvation" (as opposed to salvation itself.

6:14 shows us that there is an "in blessing" blessing and an "in multiplying" multiplication.

Our hope is sure when the conditions are met. Christ met all the qualifications for justification already. But the conditions for a believer's reward have not been Met until we (through the power of the Holy Ghost), indeed, meet them.

I don't have any doubts as to God's promises at all. I don't doubt that if I fail to meet his conditions, as a blood bought, Holy Ghost filled believer, he promises me that I won't enter the kingdom.

Lacy

 

[webdog]

Go back a couple of verses, and you will see: "Unless a man be born from above, he cannot see the Kingdom of God". This is talking about being saved in John 3:3.

John 3:5 adds something to that: "Unless a man be born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God." Works are involved.

John 3:5 is talking about entering the Kingdom, not simply being saved.

Here are a couple of sermons I did on seeing and entering the Kingdom a couple of years ago. You can read it online, download the pdf, or listen to the mp3:

See the Kingdom

Enter the Kingdom

Lazarus was able to "see" Abraham in Heaven. Is the Kingdom not Heaven? Was Lazarus (who was tormented) in the Kingdom?

Another thing that doesn't sit right is the "inherit" argument. I can "inherit" a 100 unit apartment building, while my brother does not, but my brother can still live within the apartment building (along with 99 others). Doess the fact that he / they did not "inherit" the apartment keep them out of it?

Gal 4:7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Another thing that doesn't sit right is the "inherit" argument. I can "inherit" a 100 unit apartment building, while my brother does not, but my brother can still live within the apartment building (along with 99 others). Doess the fact that he / they did not "inherit" the apartment keep them out of it?

Unfortunately, the New Testament warns us to consider another set of brothers instead of you and yours. Heb 12:16-17

Lacy

 

[webdog]

Unfortunately, the New Testament warns us to consider another set of brothers instead of you and yours. Heb 12:16-17

Lacy

Now you are switching what "inheritance" is. If we are "in Christ", we are sons of God...joint heirs in Christ. We WILL inherit the Kingdom.