Kingdom Exclusion

[Lacy Evans]

IMO--this "Kingdom Exclusion" doctrine sounds more like a "Protestant Purgatory"

Surely you can do better than that.:smilewinkgrin: :love2:

Lacy

 

[Hope of Glory]

Most people fail to remember that Esau got an inheritance and a blessing, just not the better inheritance and the blessing of the firstborn.

 

[Linda64]

Surely you can do better than that.:smilewinkgrin: :love2:

Lacy

Lacy,

Surely you can do better with your exegisis of Hebrews 6 as it relates to "your" doctrine of Kingdom Exclusion.

The writer of Hebrews was speaking about those who were INTELLECTUALLY convinced that Jesus was the Messiah--but because of bitter persecution, they were going away from the light they had, returning to Judaism. These people were not saved.

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Who is the YOU referring to in verse 9?

 

[J. Jump]

Linda64 there are several issues with your latest post. One of which just goes to show that you contradict yourself. You say that Hebrews is dealing with eternal salvation and then you make the following statement:

The writer of Hebrews was speaking about those who were INTELLECTUALLY convinced that Jesus was the Messiah

hereby acknowledging that these people in fact where believers in the Messiah.

The question is what does believing in the Messiah have to do with eternal salvation. The fact that Christ is King does not save eternally. Believing that Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood as the LAMB on my behalf a sinner is what saves, and is the ONLY thing that saves. If a person believes in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus they are saved, according to Scripture.

Believing in Christ as King is NOT related to eternal salvation. Therefore Hebrews is dealing with Christ as King, and He is King of a coming kingdom, therefore the "kingdom" is exactly the context of Hebrews.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Lacy,



Surely you can do better with your exegisis of Hebrews 6 as it relates to "your" doctrine of Kingdom Exclusion.

Exe-who? That's a big word. I just read it and believed it. I didn't execute, (er. . . exegete) anything. And it's not my doctrine. It is an established Baptist doctrine and I can prove it. Would you like a historical list of Baptist and Brethren scholars (Who do know how to exegete) who taught it?

The writer of Hebrews was speaking about those who were INTELLECTUALLY convinced that Jesus was the Messiah--but because of bitter persecution, they were going away from the light they had, returning to Judaism. These people were not saved.

Did you just make that up? It's nowhere in the whole book of Hebrews.

If they are not saved, then why give them a works-based doctrine. That seems crazy. They needed to get saved. Nobody ever once got saved by being diligent, patient, and hoping to the end. Be careful in your wrangling. When you wiggle your way out from under the warnings in Hebrews by applying them to someone else you absolutely always end up with a salvation by works for somebody. But the truth is everybody that ever got saved got saved by faith alone.

Here is who he is speaking to.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

"Taste" is defined a couple of chapters earlier.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Sounds to me like they got a pretty good taste.

Hebrews 6:9

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Who is the YOU referring to in verse 9?

It is the same saved "you" that he warns to not be slothful and to faithfully and patiently inherit the promise in verse 12.

Lacy

 

[Linda64]

It is an established Baptist doctrine and I can prove it. Would you like a historical list of Baptist and Brethren scholars (Who do know how to exegete) who taught it?

Well, Lacy--I have been going to an IFB church for many years and it sure isn't taught or preached there. My pastor had never heard of it until I told him a week ago. I really don't need an historical list of Baptists and Brethren scholars---I already know who they are. Just because they are Baptists and Brethren scholars, doesn't mean they are correct in their exegisis.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Is this a Dreadful, Terrible Doctrine?

I will give a short response to each of these statements after pointing out his errors in reasoning and scripture connection. Most have been commented on previously.

He begins with 2 Cor.5:10-11, speaking of the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST which “applies doctrinally” to the BODY OF CHRIST.

Note how he uses TWO FALSE DOCTRINES as “truth” to INSERT his falsehood, which is supposed to counter them. They are SALVATION BY WORKS and MANIFEST WORKS SHOWING SALVATION. Neither are true for the body of Christ. They are TRUE for others DISPENSATIONALLY. HIS “truth” shows it is “unreasonable” that they lose their salvation to burn forever, while it would ONLY BE for 1000 years! Ain’t that great? Here’s his quote from page 241.

“On the other hand, the message this book brings to the Christian is, Be good or suffer loss for 1000 years.”

He can’t PRODUCE “one verse” which teaches that ANY MEMBER of the body of Christ will burn in hell for 1000 years. I’m not joking folks. It’s a DELUDED, DECIEVED, DEVILISH, DAMNED, DISTORTED DOCTRINE. His teaching DEPARTS from Pauline dispensationalism, just as Paul STATED members of the body would go into apostasy. (2 Thess.2, 2 Tim.3-4)

He then quotes Joseph Sirr, who denies Rev.20, giving you his “opinion” of who they COULD BE, “if” they have something which is not even MENTIONED in the text. (The “spirit” of martyrs) PURE FANTASY, “speculation”, supposition, and INTERJECTION, used for the purpose to FABRICATE a belief and teaching. Who cares what Sirr “thought” about the passage? Bible believers don’t, just like they don’t care about anyone who DENIES the salvation is by grace through faith without works.

Bible distorters who teach faith and works for salvation, OR salvation is guaranteed ONLY by MANIFEST WORKS doesn’t NEGATE the truth taught by Paul. Nor is Faust’s distortion and DOWNRIGHT LIE about Pauline teaching correct. He says.

“Compared to these views, this book holds the MODERATE POSITION between no judgment and eternal judgment for the carnal believer.” (Page 242)

Faust is a foolish, deceptive liar. CHRISTIANS believe that there is a JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST. (2 Cor.5, Rom.14, 2 Tim.4) There will be REWARDS and LOSS OF REWARD. (1 Cor.3) There is no hell or EXCLUSION from the millennial kingdom in the passage.

Faust is a MAGICIAN. Paul speaks of the KINGDOM OF GOD, which is a HEAVENLY KINGDOM. (1 Cor.15, 2 Tim.4, Acts 14) It is not the “millennial” kingdom. We ARE in the kingdom of his dear Son, RIGHT NOW (spiritually), through the Holy Spirit, having been born again. (John 3) We WILL BE “translated” at the rapture. (1 Cor.15, 1 Thess.4) The MILLENNAL KINGDOM comes “years” AFTER we have been CHANGED!

taken from: http://p079.ezboard.com/fthemidweekrapturefrm166.showMessage?topicID=58.topic

 

[Lacy Evans]

Just because they are Baptists and Brethren scholars, doesn't mean they are correct in their exegisis.

I couldn't agree more with that statement. It does however prove that it is not "my" doctrine, and it proves that I didn't just make it up.

Lacy

 

[DHK]

Surely you can do better than that.:smilewinkgrin: :love2:

Lacy

Originally Posted by Linda64
IMO--this "Kingdom Exclusion" doctrine sounds more like a "Protestant Purgatory"

I agree Linda. This Kingdom Exclusion doctrine being compared to a "Protestant Purgatory" is one of the most accurate assessments one can come to.
DHK

 

[Lacy Evans]

Is this a Dreadful, Terrible Doctrine?

Yes.

2Co 5:11
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

 

[Lacy Evans]

I agree Linda. This Kingdom Exclusion doctrine being compared to a "Protestant Purgatory" is one of the most accurate assessments one can come to.
DHK
[/I]

Millennial Exclusionurgatory::The Lord's (communion) Supper:Mass

 

[James_Newman]

Faust is a MAGICIAN. Paul speaks of the KINGDOM OF GOD, which is a HEAVENLY KINGDOM. (1 Cor.15, 2 Tim.4, Acts 14) It is not the “millennial” kingdom. We ARE in the kingdom of his dear Son, RIGHT NOW (spiritually), through the Holy Spirit, having been born again. (John 3) We WILL BE “translated” at the rapture. (1 Cor.15, 1 Thess.4) The MILLENNAL KINGDOM comes “years” AFTER we have been CHANGED!

I think the magician here is Mr Denson who is seemingly able to cause the kingdom to appear himself.

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

The kingdom appears when the king appears. Whatever spiritual application can be made from the kingdom of God, it is still the literal kingdom of God on this earth that is being spoken of over and over in scripture.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

In chapter 8 of J.D. Faust's book, 'The Rod: Will God Spare It?, Faust makes the following statement:

“At the judgment seat of Christ, unfaithful Christians will lose entrance into the millennial kingdom and will be banished for 1000 years. They will then be resurrected at the Great White Throne after the millennium...Rev.20:12”

This is a statement that is in direct contradiction to the Word of God. Paul wrote:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

</B>

In this passage, Paul wrote that at the time of the Rapture, Christ will come for His own. The dead will first be raised, then we which are alive and remain in Him will be caught up to meet the Lord.

Paul makes two important statements in this wonderful passage.

1. So shall we ever be with the Lord.
What a wonderful promise! We will ever be with the Lord. Paul is confirming the Words of Jesus Christ Himself who said "He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

2. Wherefore, comfort one another with these words.
It truly is a comfort to know the truth that is written in God's Word.

To live with the thought that even though one has placed their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, one may have to go to hell for 1000 years is to live in fear.

This is also in strict contradiction to the fact that God loves His children. Why would He put His children in Hell? The answer... He wouldn't.

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

Well, Lacy--I have been going to an IFB church for many years and it sure isn't taught or preached there. My pastor had never heard of it until I told him a week ago. I really don't need an historical list of Baptists and Brethren scholars---I already know who they are. Just because they are Baptists and Brethren scholars, doesn't mean they are correct in their exegisis.

Thank you, Linda, for putting it so very well.

There have been many over the past two thousand years who have found the gospel and New Testament churches do not fit their beliefs and find new meaning.

If such "doctrine" has remained hidden from main-stream Christians, perhaps it should remain so. Just apply Acts 5:38-39. Perhaps that is why this "doctrine" is not main-stream at all.

 

[Lacy Evans]

I think the magician here is Mr Denson who is seemingly able to cause the kingdom to appear himself.

The really neato-torpedo trick is that Mr Denson (Banned from the BB) can debate with Mr Faust (Not a BB member) here in this format. And we get to enjoy it for free!

Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

If such "doctrine" has remained hidden from main-stream Christians, perhaps it should remain so. Just apply Acts 5:38-39. Perhaps that is why this "doctrine" is not main-stream at all.

Do you consider SS Craig, Robert Govett, DM Panton, Watchman Lee, AE Wilson, GH Peters, WF Roadhouse, Zane Hodges, & Charles Stanley to be "far from the mainstream"? All of them believe(d) it to some degree.

Wasn't the Roman catholic Church the MAIN STREAM for 1000 very dark years? This argement proves nothing on either side. (Except that it is not "my" doctrine.)

I predict a continued revival of the Kingdom truths.

Mt 24:14 -
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

This is also in strict contradiction to the fact that God loves His children. Why would He put His children in Hell? The answer... He wouldn't.

This is also in strict contradiction to the fact that my Daddy loves His children. Why would he bust our rear with a belt? The answer... He wouldn't.

Oh wait . . .but he did. Mean old Daddy!

Lacy

 

[J. Jump]

In this passage, Paul wrote that at the time of the Rapture, Christ will come for His own. The dead will first be raised, then we which are alive and remain in Him will be caught up to meet the Lord.

Paul makes two important statements in this wonderful passage.

1. So shall we ever be with the Lord.
What a wonderful promise! We will ever be with the Lord. Paul is confirming the Words of Jesus Christ Himself who said "He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

2. Wherefore, comfort one another with these words.
It truly is a comfort to know the truth that is written in God's Word.

Go back and re-read who this is written to. Again you can not take a passage of Scripture and rip it from context and say that it applies to every single believer. This was written to faithful believers, not unfaithful ones.

Now you can say that all Christians are faithful, but it's going to be awfully hard to prove that by Scripture if taken in context.

To live with the thought that even though one has placed their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, one may have to go to hell for 1000 years is to live in fear.

Maybe that's why we are told to work out our salvation in trembling and fear. And maybe that's why it is said It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Maybe that's why it says that the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord.

And we could go on and on.

This is also in strict contradiction to the fact that God loves His children.

The last time I checked discipline was not a bad thing, but was something done in love. So if the person doesn't receive the discipline here and now and have to receive it during the kingdom age then it is for the good of the believer not their detriment.

Why would He put His children in Hell? The answer... He wouldn't.

The answer is for disciplinary purposes for unfaithfulness in this age!

 

[J. Jump]

If such "doctrine" has remained hidden from main-stream Christians, perhaps it should remain so. Just apply Acts 5:38-39. Perhaps that is why this "doctrine" is not main-stream at all.

It continues to amaze me that so many people put their trust in men instead of in God. Who cares if its not mainstream. If it's Truth then let's believe it regardless of who does or does not believe it.

By the way the Bible is pretty clear that Christ is not going to be found in the mainstream of Christendom. We need just read Revelation 3 and the letter to the Laodiceans to know this.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Watchman Lee? who is that?

The long and the short of it is this...

The Word of God tells us that those who are found in Christ will spend eternity with Him in His kingdom.

The Word of God tells us the second death has no part in these believer's lives.

The Word of God tells us we are joint-heirs. The kingdom is an inheritance, not a reward. Crowns are rewards. We can lose the rewards, but we will never lose our inheritance.

Faust is a false prophet.