Kingdom Exclusion

[DeafPosttrib]

Lacy,

Please show me a verse in the Bible saying that the kingdom is a thousand years.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[tinytim]

I figure this thread will be closed soon since it is over 30 pages, but before It gets closed, I want to ask a question...

In the doctrine of Kingdom exclusion... is it teaching that there are 2 salvations.... one, eternal salvation, and two, kingdom salvation.

One is conditional on what Christ did
two is conditional on what we do?

Is that the correct way to look at it?

If so, then a person can be saved for eternity, but for a 1000 yrs be cut off from Christ?

It would seem that a person would have to believe in a literal 1000 yr reign also....

And is the kingdom of Heaven, kingdom of Heavens, and kingdom of God, kingdom of Christ all the same, or are there differences?

 

[tinytim]

And how does this verse play into the equation?
It mentions an everlasting kingdom... is this the same kingdom as the 1000 yrs? or a different one.

2 Peter 1:11
(11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[webdog]

Yes but in the type you will also see that Lot ended up living in a cave on the side of the mountain, while Abraham was seen on top of the mountain in the presence of the Lord.

Lot was saved from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, but he wasn't seen in the presence of the Lord like Abraham.

You cannot equate living in a cave to Kingdom exlusion. This is nothing but speculation and eisegesis. The fact is, Lot was called "righteous" while living in S&G. The whole argument presented to me supporting Kingdom exlusion is the fact not all Christians are righteous. This simply is not true.

 

[James_Newman]

1 John 3:7-8
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So if a Christian sins, is he righteous?

 

[webdog]

1 John 3:7-8
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So if a Christian sins, is he righteous?

Same question can be flipped back at you...if a Christian sins, is he no longer a "son", but is "of the devil"? Context rules!

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.

No works involved whatsoever!

 

[Lacy Evans]

And how does this verse play into the equation?
It mentions an everlasting kingdom... is this the same kingdom as the 1000 yrs? or a different one.

2 Peter 1:11
(11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Read the whole chapter, esp. v1-10. Add to your faith, don't forget that you "were purged", don't be barren or unfruitful, and you get an entrance!

Lacy

PS I started a new thread on your "Two salvations" question.

 

[webdog]

Read the whole chapter, esp. v1-10. Add to your faith, don't forget that you "were purged", don't be barren or unfruitful, and you get an entrance!

Lacy

PS I started a new thread on your "Two salvations" question.

This is dealing with sanctification...not Kingdom inheritance.

 

[James_Newman]

Same question can be flipped back at you...if a Christian sins, is he no longer a "son", but is "of the devil"? Context rules!

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.

No works involved whatsoever!

For practical purposes, what does the bible say? It says that whoever sins is of the devil. So this involves works. If salvation is freely given to those who believe regardless of works (and it is) then it follows that a person can be eternally saved (by grace through faith) and yet practically be of the devil in regards to sanctification and reward (which is based on works).

 

[Lacy Evans]

Same question can be flipped back at you...if a Christian sins, is he no longer a "son", but is "of the devil"? Context rules!

Same answer. In an absolute eternal sense yes. In an Esau, first-born way, no.


Matthew 5:43-48
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Children of you father is not a redundant term. It is not talking about salvation. God is our Father, if we are saved, but to become "children of our Father", we have to love our neighbour (works).

lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

This is dealing with sanctification...not Kingdom inheritance.

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


?????

 

[webdog]

Same answer. In an absolute eternal sense yes. In an Esau, first-born way, no.


Matthew 5:43-48
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Children of you father is not a redundant term. It is not talking about salvation. God is our Father, if we are saved, but to become "children of our Father", we have to love our neighbour (works).

lacy

The text is not talking about actually becoming sons, but being "like" our Father in Heaven, in the same sense a son is like his father. This view is the the view that is most accepted...

JFB -
That ye may be the children — sons.
of your Father which is in heaven — The meaning is, "that ye may show yourselves to be such by resembling Him" (compare Mat_5:9; Eph_5:1).

Barnes -
That ye may be the children of your Father - In Greek, the sons of your Father. The word "son" has a variety of significations. See the notes at Mat_1:1. Christians are called the "sons" or "children" of God in several of these senses: as his offspring; as adopted; as his disciples; as imitators of Him. In this passage the word is applied to them because, in doing good to enemies, they resemble God. He makes His sun to rise upon the evil and good, and sends rain, without distinction, on the just and unjust. So His people should show that they imitate or resemble Him, or that they possess His spirit, by doing good in a similar way.

Clarke -
That ye may be the children of your Father - Instead of ὑιοι children, some MSS., the latter Persic version, and several of the primitive fathers, read ὃμοιοι, that ye may be like to, or resemble, your Father who is in heaven. This is certainly our Lord’s meaning. As a man’s child is called his, because a partaker of his own nature, so a holy person is said to be a child of God, because he is a partaker of the Divine nature.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Same question can be flipped back at you...if a Christian sins, is he no longer a "son", but is "of the devil"? Context rules!

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.

No works involved whatsoever

John wrote that if we (the saved) sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous.

Paul wrote that Christ came to save sinners, 'of whom I am chief'. Paul struggled with sin even after his conversion, yet was not rejected of the Father. Why? Because Christ paid the sin-debt with His own blood.

The blood paid for our sins, and our being born of the water (at the cross) and of the Spirit (the drawing to God) has guaranteed everyone who places their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ acceptance into His Kingdom.

There is no exclusion for the child of God.

 

[webdog]

John wrote that if we (the saved) sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous.

Paul wrote that Christ came to save sinners, 'of whom I am chief'. Paul struggled with sin even after his conversion, yet was not rejected of the Father. Why? Because Christ paid the sin-debt with His own blood.

The blood paid for our sins, and our being born of the water (at the cross) and of the Spirit (the drawing to God) has guaranteed everyone who places their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ acceptance into His Kingdom.

There is no exclusion for the child of God.

I agree with everything...but your signature

 

[Benjamin]

Lot repented. Why not discuss his wife like the NT does. She was saved from Sodom's destruction but lost in another way because she was disobedient. What other possible application of the story of Lot's wife could there be for saved folks? Why warn believers (disciples) to "Remember Lot's wife?" Luke 17:32

To preserve them, so that they do not fall away from the faith, apostasy.

John 3:3 tells us that unless a man is born from above [saved], he cannot see the Kingdoml. But, John 3:5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit [works], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Funny that verse 4 is left out of this “rightly dividing” which shows that Nicodemus didn’t understand what Jesus was talking about when He said born again and is seen in verse 4, context, by his question asking, can I enter back into my mothers womb? In verse 5 Jesus further explained what He meant by being born again, born of water (flesh) AND born of Spirit (heavenly).

We are being shown there is two types of birth and Jesus explained it is the spirit must be born again to enter into the kingdom.

Luke 1:6 tells us that Zecharias and Elizabeth were righteous. Why? Because they walked in the ordinances and commandments of the Lord. Works.

Righteousness is by faith, NOT works.

(Rom 1:16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

(Rom 1:17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written. The just shall live by faith.

(Rom 1:18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

(Phi 3:9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Don’t any of you double salvation purgatory boys understand being in bondage to Christ?

(Heb 11:32) And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthah; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

(Heb 11:33) Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

(Heb 11:34) Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

 

[Lacy Evans]

For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.No works involved whatsoever!

AMEN!!!!

Now what ELSE does it say

Jas 2:21 -
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

it has to be both.

 

[Benjamin]

2Ti 2:12 –
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Good reason not to deny the righteousness of faith by believing the propitiation of Christ fro our sins.

Ac 14:22 -
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Confirming and exhorting them to continue in the faith, Duh!

Joh 3:5 -
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Yep, must be born again of the Spirit.

Mt 5:20 -
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Wow, exceeding the righteousness of scribes and Pharisees, you mean the law of works isn’t even good enough???

Mt 7:21 -
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

God sent His own Son to be a propitiation for our sins, yet some will try entering the kingdom by their own will.

Mt 18:3 -
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Except ye be CONVERTED, AND become as little children, as a child of God, no other way shall you enter.

Mt 19:23 -
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Can’t have two masters, or two salvations.

Mt 19:24 -
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Because the rich man doesn’t want to let go of the things of this world.

1Co 6:9 -
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Don’t you know that all have sinned and fall short, don’t be deceived, ALL have sinned, righteousness comes by faith Eph 2:8-9.

1Co 6:10 -
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

That’s right, only one way, JESUS!

Ga 5:21 -
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God

Instructions to show your faith by your works, preservation.

1 Cor 3:
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

Don’t you know, like in this is instructions bud, that you are the temple of God; if any man corrupts with moral influences the temple of God, him shall God destroy; don’t be deceived, if you think your wise by the morals of this world your better of to be a fool. Righteousness is by faith.

OK, I got to go to work, the secular type, have fun!

 

[webdog]

AMEN!!!!

Now what ELSE does it say

Jas 2:21 -
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

it has to be both.

When Abraham offered Isaac upon the alter, he did so out of FAITH, not works. His offering was an outside showing of his faith...obedience, what verse 24 is describing.

 

[Lacy Evans]

The text is not talking about actually becoming sons, but being "like" our Father in Heaven, in the same sense a son is like his father. This view is the the view that is most accepted...

. . . , that ye may be like to, or resemble, your Father who is in heaven. This is certainly our Lord’s meaning. As a man’s child is called his, because a partaker of his own nature, so a holy person is said to be a child of God, because he is a partaker of the Divine nature.

That is exactly what I am saying. So when the scripture says "son", context must decide whether it is absolute (salvation) or practical (Act like your daddy!).

lacy

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Matthew 19:21 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

This is not works here, but releasing that which would hinder one from serving Christ. And Christ promised riches in heaven.

Is this heaven Christ spoke about outside the kingdom? I think not. John wrote,

Revelation 22:15 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

No, kingdom exclusion is for the unrighteous only. We, the saved, are not unrighteousness. When the saved stand before the judgment seat of Christ, they will not be sent away, for God's Word tells us

Job 29:14 14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.

and again

Isaiah 61:10 10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

The saved are seen as wearing a robe and a diadem (crown) according to God's Word. Not because of any work they do, but because of Christ and His finished work on the cross.