Michael Hollner
Active Member
this refers ONLY to the Original Autographs, and NOT to ANY translation, no matter how good it is!
The OO doctrine (originals only) originates from man, and it is not in the Bible.
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this refers ONLY to the Original Autographs, and NOT to ANY translation, no matter how good it is!
And God did not promise any perfect, word-for-word translation. And for mankind, it's impossible to translate ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, & Koine Greek word-for-word into English, which is a much-more-comples language, as are all modern languages.You really need to let up on the 'human reasoning' thing, it is getting old. The 'science' deals with reasoning and most KJV believers just have simple faith in the promises of God.
The OO doctrine (originals only) originates from man, and it is not in the Bible.
Click on the name of the person and hit "start a conversation". I sent you a pm.How do I send you a PM in here?
I haven't read the rest of the thread, either, but maybe I can help here. The Bible was originally given in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek by a miraculous process. Miracles are perfect and produce perfection. They are also instantaneous.I have yet to read the rest of the new thread so far so hopefully I’m not repeating anything-
But is it possible that these men unknowingly were used by God to keep His word perfectly preserved? Is God not perfect? Hasn’t God used men unknowingly throughout history to accomplish His will?
You do not prove your assertion to be true or scriptural.The OO doctrine (originals only) originates from man, and it is not in the Bible.
I agree, except with not having "perfect translations". But the reason is how I define "perfect translation" as, as you point out, no translation is a perfect representation of the source (if anything else, some ideas communicated easily to the original audience will be "lost in translation". A "perfect translation" points to the text translated.I haven't read the rest of the thread, either, but maybe I can help here. The Bible was originally given in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek by a miraculous process. Miracles are perfect and produce perfection. They are also instantaneous.
However, preservation is a process that is not miraculous, but takes days, months, years, even hundreds of years. In the case of the KJV--which I love and use--we have in 2021 the product of a process of translation (for which we do not have the original, handwritten manuscripts), proofreading, and revision. Therefore, since it is not miraculous, then it is not a perfect translation.
Anyone who thinks the KJV we have in 2021 is a perfect translation must point to a miracle that made it so. No one does that. Therefore, theologically, it is impossible for the KJV to be a perfect translation.
One more point. If the KJV is perfect, I'd like someone to tell me how to get our Japanese NT from the TR to be perfect. I just added corrections from a proofreader to Revelation, and boy did we make the mistakes!
Can we assert positively from either the Bible or a dictionary that Glenn's definition of preservation is correct?Do you clearly and soundly understand the meaning of the word preservation?... Glenn Conjurske added: “The ‘final form’ of anything which is preserved is just the same as it was the first day of its existence, and every day thereafter. This is the meaning of ‘preservation...
John, I wanted to take this out of the context of the endless Bible Versions debate to discuss on its on merit. So I have created a new thread that can be found here:Miracles are perfect and produce perfection. They are also instantaneous.
I haven't read the rest of the thread, either, but maybe I can help here. The Bible was originally given in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek by a miraculous process. Miracles are perfect and produce perfection. They are also instantaneous.
However, preservation is a process that is not miraculous, but takes days, months, years, even hundreds of years. In the case of the KJV--which I love and use--we have in 2021 the product of a process of translation (for which we do not have the original, handwritten manuscripts), proofreading, and revision. Therefore, since it is not miraculous, then it is not a perfect translation.
Anyone who thinks the KJV we have in 2021 is a perfect translation must point to a miracle that made it so. No one does that. Therefore, theologically, it is impossible for the KJV to be a perfect translation.
One more point. If the KJV is perfect, I'd like someone to tell me how to get our Japanese NT from the TR to be perfect. I just added corrections from a proofreader to Revelation, and boy did we make the mistakes!
And God did not promise any perfect, word-for-word translation. And for mankind, it's impossible to translate ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, & Koine Greek word-for-word into English, which is a much-more-comples language, as are all modern languages.
But God didn't do it."And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible" (Mark 10:27 (KJV).
It all comes down to what we have been taught and whether we believe God's promises about His own Word, or man's doubts about it.
Nowhere in Scripture does it say a translation cannot be perfect, only science and scholarship claims this.
Yes! That is my argument that God's perfect Word transcends translations (the Great Bible, the KJV, NKJV, ESV, NASB, ect. are all God's Word)."And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible" (Mark 10:27 (KJV).
Forgive me, but I don't think you are understanding the difference between a miracle and providence. Preservation in Scripture is clearly a function of providence. Study it out. The terms "preservation" and "preserve" occur many times in Scripture.When Jesus read out of Isaiah in Luke chapter four He was not reading the originals, but copies of copies of the originals which involved divine preservation by God’s providence. Theologically, and being that the doctrine of preservation is all throughout God’s Word, preservation involves the workings of a miracle-working God. So if you want to point to a miracle, your miracle is within the Scriptures itself. Is not Psalms 12:6-7 (in the KJV) a miracle within itself?
As far as translating the TR into Japanese I know this is a difficult task. However, I would recommend doing as Francaise by Nadine L Stratford did with her French NT. Her Francaise; Le Nouveau Testament King James is a faithful translation (word by word) of the English KJV into French, in order to make it available to the French-speaking world. She used the KJV as a primary source (being the KJV translators already did the hard work from the TR editions) and the TR as secondary. Even with that, there still remains several words that she is seeking for the French to incorporate as to line up with the KJV.
Nowhere in Scripture does it say a translation cannot be perfect, only science and scholarship claims this. We either believe “every Word of God is pure and perfect” (Psalms 19:7; Pro 30:5) KJV, in the year 2021, or we believe the ‘Masters of Divinity’ and the ‘science” of the scholars (Malachi 2:12) KJV. It all comes down to what we have been taught and whether we believe God's promises about His own Word, or man's doubts about it.
Is not our God a miracle-working God? Is not our God able to preserve every one of His Words for us in the year 2021? Is not God able to do this? Yes, yes, and yes, for He is quite able, not only able, but has done this great work for us today.
It is our job as ministers to minister ‘faith’ in God’s Word, not spread doubts and questions about it (I Tim 1:4) KJV.
"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible" (Mark 10:27) KJV.