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- Thread starter Dragoon68
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O
OCC
Guest
At this point in time I don't care to. I was not discussing the purpose, design and limitations of YOUR government. I was talking about government itself...not just yours. I believe what I said about it and I believe you are wrong. I am not going to sit here and argue with you about it though.
[ September 13, 2005, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: King James ]
[ September 13, 2005, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: King James ]
This, King James, illustrates my point that people seem more concerned with the rights of criminals and terrorists than they are with those of law abiding citizens. The point wasn't made to say that criminals or terrorists have no rights because, in our system of justice, they do. It was made because so many people don't seem to get very bothered when the rights of law abiding citizens are grossly trampled upon. It seems even people in other nations are ready to condemn our mistreatment of criminals and terrorists – which has happened from time to time - but find no harm in the misuse of government power over our own citizens – which, in some areas, continues to be a significant problem.
poncho
Well-Known Member
Following low-key inquiries that were met with stony silence and official indifference, the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (CCRKBA) today is calling for a federal investigation into reports of gun seizures from law-abiding New Orleans residents, and is demanding that officials there immediately account for all confiscated firearms.
CCRKBA Chairman Alan Gottlieb is also demanding that New Orleans police officials immediately stop the seizures, disclose where those firearms are being kept, how they are secured, the type and number of firearms involved, and how those guns will be promptly returned to their rightful owners, in the condition in which they were originally taken.
"I also want to know under just what authority New Orleans officials are confiscating lawfully-owned firearms from law-abiding citizens," Gottlieb said. "Where does it say that the state and federal Constitution can be nullified, even briefly, simply because of a hurricane? In every other natural disaster this country has ever faced, people retain their civil rights, including the right of self-defense, but New Orleans and Louisiana state officials have added the sin of arrogance to incompetence and negligence for which they must be held accountable when this is over."
Gun rights activists have been outraged by a film clip showing a police officer tackling an elderly woman who was armed, in her own home, and later removing her from the premises.
"We know this is only one incident that is being replayed incessantly, and that not all the circumstances are known," said CCRKBA Executive Director Joe Waldron, "but this incident, combined with statements by local officials, particularly Police Superintendent P. Edwin Compass III, that nobody but police will be allowed to have guns, demands a full and complete explanation to the American public. Visiting police and National Guardsmen are in New Orleans to help hurricane victims, and the nation is grateful beyond words. You don't help people by violating their civil rights or the public trust."
"There are reports that residents who refuse to leave are being disarmed, anyway," Gottlieb added, "leaving them to the mercy of any lingering looters and thugs. If true, it is unconscionable. In the anarchy that reigned in the city for days, these armed citizens provided the only protection for their families, businesses and neighborhoods when many police walked off their jobs, and a few even participated in the looting, and the world knows it. The people responsible for making that decision should be immediately disciplined and relieved of command. Visiting officers from other jurisdictions involved in these confiscations should be immediately sent home.
"New Orleans is still part of the United States, not a police state," Gottlieb concluded
SOURCE
(CNSNews.com) - A gun rights group is calling a decision by New Orleans officials to confiscate guns from law-abiding citizens "simply outrageous."
Gun Owners of America challenged the mayor's authority to order the confiscations.
"You can't legitimately suspend the God-given rights of American citizens who have committed no crimes," said Erich Pratt, director of communications for GOA.
Pratt said the confiscations won't make the people of New Orleans any safer. "Privately owned firearms were the only thing which prevented good people from becoming victims in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, when few policemen were to be found anywhere in the city," he said.
"There have been many stories of self-defense, where stranded survivors were able to use firearms to protect what little they had, against the criminal thugs who had been released from the prisons. To take away their firearms now is simply adding 'insult to injury,'" said Pratt.
"Unfortunately, we have yet to learn the lessons from previous dark episodes in our recent history," Pratt said. "We need to remember those lessons, such as the riots of Los Angeles more than a decade ago."
Pratt said during the riots in 1992, the city was "in complete turmoil as stores were looted and burned. Motorists were dragged from their cars and beaten." In Los Angeles, as in New Orleans, police were slow to respond to the crisis, he said.
Even National Guardsmen who were sent to the affected areas just sat back and watched the violence because they were low on ammunition, said Pratt.
"But not everybody in Los Angeles suffered," Pratt said. "In some of the hot spots, Korean merchants were able to successfully protect their stores with semi-automatic firearms. In areas where armed citizens banded together for self-protection, their
businesses were spared while others -- which were left unprotected -- burned to the ground."
According to media reports on the aftermath of the LA riots, "life-long gun control supporters were running to gun stores" to buy guns only to find there was a 15-day waiting period for firearms, said Pratt.
SOURCE
[ September 13, 2005, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: poncho ]
CCRKBA Chairman Alan Gottlieb is also demanding that New Orleans police officials immediately stop the seizures, disclose where those firearms are being kept, how they are secured, the type and number of firearms involved, and how those guns will be promptly returned to their rightful owners, in the condition in which they were originally taken.
"I also want to know under just what authority New Orleans officials are confiscating lawfully-owned firearms from law-abiding citizens," Gottlieb said. "Where does it say that the state and federal Constitution can be nullified, even briefly, simply because of a hurricane? In every other natural disaster this country has ever faced, people retain their civil rights, including the right of self-defense, but New Orleans and Louisiana state officials have added the sin of arrogance to incompetence and negligence for which they must be held accountable when this is over."
Gun rights activists have been outraged by a film clip showing a police officer tackling an elderly woman who was armed, in her own home, and later removing her from the premises.
"We know this is only one incident that is being replayed incessantly, and that not all the circumstances are known," said CCRKBA Executive Director Joe Waldron, "but this incident, combined with statements by local officials, particularly Police Superintendent P. Edwin Compass III, that nobody but police will be allowed to have guns, demands a full and complete explanation to the American public. Visiting police and National Guardsmen are in New Orleans to help hurricane victims, and the nation is grateful beyond words. You don't help people by violating their civil rights or the public trust."
"There are reports that residents who refuse to leave are being disarmed, anyway," Gottlieb added, "leaving them to the mercy of any lingering looters and thugs. If true, it is unconscionable. In the anarchy that reigned in the city for days, these armed citizens provided the only protection for their families, businesses and neighborhoods when many police walked off their jobs, and a few even participated in the looting, and the world knows it. The people responsible for making that decision should be immediately disciplined and relieved of command. Visiting officers from other jurisdictions involved in these confiscations should be immediately sent home.
"New Orleans is still part of the United States, not a police state," Gottlieb concluded
SOURCE
(CNSNews.com) - A gun rights group is calling a decision by New Orleans officials to confiscate guns from law-abiding citizens "simply outrageous."
Gun Owners of America challenged the mayor's authority to order the confiscations.
"You can't legitimately suspend the God-given rights of American citizens who have committed no crimes," said Erich Pratt, director of communications for GOA.
Pratt said the confiscations won't make the people of New Orleans any safer. "Privately owned firearms were the only thing which prevented good people from becoming victims in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, when few policemen were to be found anywhere in the city," he said.
"There have been many stories of self-defense, where stranded survivors were able to use firearms to protect what little they had, against the criminal thugs who had been released from the prisons. To take away their firearms now is simply adding 'insult to injury,'" said Pratt.
"Unfortunately, we have yet to learn the lessons from previous dark episodes in our recent history," Pratt said. "We need to remember those lessons, such as the riots of Los Angeles more than a decade ago."
Pratt said during the riots in 1992, the city was "in complete turmoil as stores were looted and burned. Motorists were dragged from their cars and beaten." In Los Angeles, as in New Orleans, police were slow to respond to the crisis, he said.
Even National Guardsmen who were sent to the affected areas just sat back and watched the violence because they were low on ammunition, said Pratt.
"But not everybody in Los Angeles suffered," Pratt said. "In some of the hot spots, Korean merchants were able to successfully protect their stores with semi-automatic firearms. In areas where armed citizens banded together for self-protection, their
businesses were spared while others -- which were left unprotected -- burned to the ground."
According to media reports on the aftermath of the LA riots, "life-long gun control supporters were running to gun stores" to buy guns only to find there was a 15-day waiting period for firearms, said Pratt.
SOURCE
[ September 13, 2005, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: poncho ]
King James, I’m not trying to “shoot” you with this response! I do, however, believe it’s important to respond to several points you made.
The scripture does say that government is ordained by God which, to my understanding, means that government is a recognized element of human existence upon this earth and is to be respected as such. I imagine we agree on at least some of this position.
A principle duty of government, according to scripture, is the administration of justice. Government has that responsibility to its citizens. This means it is to judge and punish offenders of the law so that individual citizens do not have to do so. The government carries the sword of justice in our behalf. This requirement for justice extends from criminals to enemies of the state that would bring harm to our nation. This is the justification for a nation to make war upon another through the authority of its government.
In America we’re fortunate to have invented probably the best system of human government known to man. Our government derives all its power for the people it serves. Our government is subject to the people. Its power is limited to that granted to it by the people as documented in our Constitution. Our people, as individuals, are not subject to the government in the sense they once were to an earthly King who might be good or evil, harsh or compassionate, favoring one group or another, mandating a state religion, owning all persons and their property, etc. The individual’s right to liberty is paramount in our society. This also means the people, whether they accept it or not, are fully responsible for the conduct of their own government. They can no longer claim an evil or unjust monarch is responsible to any wrongs done by their government.
We, as Christians, are morally – not legally - obligated to both honor and respect the law of our land and those appointed to enforce it but we are also obligated to challenge and keep the law in check according to the principles under which it was created. This later part means will have both a right and a duty to protest what we believe is wrong that our government might do. Objecting to illegal actions of our government is not equal to insurrection or rebellion.
We’re not a perfect nation and even our system of government is not perfect. The only perfect one would be a theocracy lead by the Lord Jesus Christ. But, among mankind, many nations seek to emulate our form of government and those distant from it long for the individual liberty we possess.
poncho
Well-Known Member
I would add something to this Dragoon.
I believe our constitutional republic falls under Romans 13 only in so far as the ligit purpose for which it was created. Today however much of our "government" is not ligit as a number of agencies such as FEMA was implimented by unconsitutional means and operates unlawfully under color of law and not the letter of the law.
Imo it would not be contrary to God's word to engage in peaceful civil disobedience to the unlawful components of this government that was instituted by man through deception in order to uphold the lawful which was ordained by God and formed to rid our land of tyranny.
The tyrants of today operate beyond the laws of both God and man and therefore deserve to be shown the door and given the boot.
I believe our constitutional republic falls under Romans 13 only in so far as the ligit purpose for which it was created. Today however much of our "government" is not ligit as a number of agencies such as FEMA was implimented by unconsitutional means and operates unlawfully under color of law and not the letter of the law.
Imo it would not be contrary to God's word to engage in peaceful civil disobedience to the unlawful components of this government that was instituted by man through deception in order to uphold the lawful which was ordained by God and formed to rid our land of tyranny.
The tyrants of today operate beyond the laws of both God and man and therefore deserve to be shown the door and given the boot.
emeraldctyangel
New Member
Well poncho, who would be responsible for helping if FEMA is unconstitutional?
prophecynut
New Member
For the conspiracy buffs and alternative news readers out there, consider adding this site to your favorites.
http://thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=3581
"Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her: death, mourning and famine." Rev. 18
http://thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=3581
"Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!"
"Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her: death, mourning and famine." Rev. 18
New Orleans Gun Seizures Allegedly 'Creating More Victims'
What happened to all those exaggerated claims of eternal "gloom and doom" for anyone - residents that is - that stayed behind?
Will all those weapons that were confiscated be returned to their rightful owners or will many of them go home with the agents who found them and took them?
What good is a "permit", as if one should be needed, to have a weapon if even that can be taken away at the very times the weapon is most needed? Perhaps it's only value is to the government so that it may know he is certainly armed.
Where are the missing 300 New Orleans police officers?
Now that all the "justification" for forced evacuation has proven unfounded will those remaining residents be "allowed" to stay in their own homes?
What happened to all those exaggerated claims of eternal "gloom and doom" for anyone - residents that is - that stayed behind?
Will all those weapons that were confiscated be returned to their rightful owners or will many of them go home with the agents who found them and took them?
What good is a "permit", as if one should be needed, to have a weapon if even that can be taken away at the very times the weapon is most needed? Perhaps it's only value is to the government so that it may know he is certainly armed.
Where are the missing 300 New Orleans police officers?
poncho
Well-Known Member
They had to make it look worse than what is was so they'd have a convincing arguement to take back to congress to justify repealing the Posse Comitatis act, and give the excutive even more police state powers.
I doubt anything confiscated will be returned.
Owning a gun isn't right anymore, it's a privilaedge that can be denied you at the lowest form of government.
They joined Blackwater Security and got big pay raises to guard the rich folks mansions?
I doubt anything confiscated will be returned.
Owning a gun isn't right anymore, it's a privilaedge that can be denied you at the lowest form of government.
They joined Blackwater Security and got big pay raises to guard the rich folks mansions?
emeraldctyangel
New Member
Actually I would term it as mildy annoying and over the top obnoxious. But hey, everyone has to have a goal. *...and he/she wonders why nobody takes him/her seriously...* oh well.
poncho
Well-Known Member
Actually I would term it as mildy annoying and over the top obnoxious. But hey, everyone has to have a goal. *...and he/she wonders why nobody takes him/her seriously...* oh well. </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for the encouraging words. I don't wonder at all I already know why few people here take me serious and I understand the two conditions that most of the folks here suffer from cognitive dissonance. and
group think.
Aesop tells a story about a fox that tried in vain to reach a cluster of grapes that dangled from a vine above his head. The fox leapt high to grasp the grapes, but the delicious-looking fruit remained just out of reach of his snapping jaws. After a few attempts the fox gave up and said to himself, ‘‘These grapes are sour, and if I had some I would not eat them."
Aesop’s fable is the source of the phrase ‘‘sour grapes." The story illustrates what former Stanford University social psychologist Leon Festinger called cognitive dissonance. It is the distressing mental state in which people feel they "find themselves doing things that don’t fit with what they know, or having opinions that do not fit with other opinions they hold."
The fox’s retreat from the grape arbor clashed with his knowledge that the grapes were tasty. By changing his attitude toward the grapes, he provided an acceptable explanation for his behavior.
Festinger considered the human need to avoid dissonance as basic as the need for safety or the need to satisfy hunger. It is an aversive drive that goads us to be consistent. The tension of dissonance motivates us to change either our behavior or our belief in an effort to avoid a distressing feeling. The more important the issue and the greater the discrepancy between behavior and belief, the higher the magnitude of dissonance that we will feel. In extreme cases cognitive dissonance is like our cringing response to fingernails being scraped on a blackboard—we’ll do anything to get away from the awful sound.
Festinger claimed that people avoid information that is likely to increase dissonance. Not only do we tend to select reading material and television programs that are consistent with our existing beliefs, we usually choose to be with people who are like us. By taking care to ‘‘stick with our own kind," we can maintain the relative comfort of the status quo. Like-minded people buffer us from ideas that could cause discomfort. In that sense, the process of making friends is an example of selecting our own propaganda.
Eight Main Symptoms of Group Think
1) Illusion of Invulnerability: Members ignore obvious danger, take extreme risk, and are overly optimistic.
2) Collective Rationalization: Members discredit and explain away warning contrary to group thinking.
3) Illusion of Morality: Members believe their decisions are morally correct, ignoring the ethical consequences of their decisions.
4) Excessive Stereotyping:The group constructs negative sterotypes of rivals outside the group.
5) Pressure for Conformity: Members pressure any in the group who express arguments against the group's stereotypes, illusions, or commitments, viewing such opposition as disloyalty.
6) Self-Censorship: Members withhold their dissenting views and counter-arguments.
7) Illusion of Unanimity: Members perceive falsely that everyone agrees with the group's decision; silence is seen as consent.
8) Mindguards: Some members appoint themselves to the role of protecting the group from adverse information that might threaten group complacency
That's why you find it mildly annoying when I introduce facts that contradict your long held preconditioned beliefs gained through years of constantly being subjected to propaganda by the government through a complicit corporate media, and find me obnoxious when I stcik to my guns and won't back down when confronted with your accusations of conspiracy theory, lunacy, sterotyping, insults and whatnot.
So you see I completely understand that you are only trying to flee the pain caused from dissonance by seeking out the comfort of the herd.
How many of those involved in the illegal "confiscation" - otherwise known as stealing - of weapons from residents in New Orleans now have some nice "throw down" guns?
I hope honest concerned law enforcement officers will speak out on this.
Where are the 300 missing New Orleans police officers?
Granny Accused of Looting Freed
It's possible she might have been looting but it sure doesn't seem like it.
It's always easier to subdue the compliant.
It's possible she might have been looting but it sure doesn't seem like it.
It's always easier to subdue the compliant.
poncho
Well-Known Member
Police help themselves
A little old lady goes to the pen for stealing a piece of meat but the police can get a free pair of shoes along with other "items" at the local Wally World.
How many of them will see time behind bars?
A little old lady goes to the pen for stealing a piece of meat but the police can get a free pair of shoes along with other "items" at the local Wally World.
How many of them will see time behind bars?
hillclimber
New Member
Although somewhat cogent, it is mere observation, and displays little enlightenment. Your smiley face makes it OK though.Originally posted by poncho:
Eight Main Symptoms of Group Think
1) Illusion of Invulnerability: Members ignore obvious danger, take extreme risk, and are overly optimistic.
2) Collective Rationalization: Members discredit and explain away warning contrary to group thinking.
3) Illusion of Morality: Members believe their decisions are morally correct, ignoring the ethical consequences of their decisions.
4) Excessive Stereotyping:The group constructs negative sterotypes of rivals outside the group.
5) Pressure for Conformity: Members pressure any in the group who express arguments against the group's stereotypes, illusions, or commitments, viewing such opposition as disloyalty.
6) Self-Censorship: Members withhold their dissenting views and counter-arguments.
7) Illusion of Unanimity: Members perceive falsely that everyone agrees with the group's decision; silence is seen as consent.
8) Mindguards: Some members appoint themselves to the role of protecting the group from adverse information that might threaten group complacency
That's why you find it mildly annoying when I introduce facts that contradict your long held preconditioned beliefs gained through years of constantly being subjected to propaganda by the government through a complicit corporate media, and find me obnoxious when I stcik to my guns and won't back down when confronted with your accusations of conspiracy theory, lunacy, sterotyping, insults and whatnot.
So you see I completely understand that you are only trying to flee the pain caused from dissonance by seeking out the comfort of the herd.
Oh yes, herd mentality (being like minded) is not necessarily bad.
O
OCC
Guest
Dragoon said: "A principle duty of government, according to scripture, is the administration of justice. Government has that responsibility to its citizens. This means it is to judge and punish offenders of the law so that individual citizens do not have to do so. The government carries the sword of justice in our behalf. This requirement for justice extends from criminals to enemies of the state that would bring harm to our nation. This is the justification for a nation to make war upon another through the authority of its government."
I say: I agree. This is what I was getting at when I said that God instituted government to be a check against sin. Many people do not commit crimes because of the consequences.
I say: I agree. This is what I was getting at when I said that God instituted government to be a check against sin. Many people do not commit crimes because of the consequences.