You beat me to it. There are other commandments too. You keep them because your saved, not to attain salvation.
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Leaving the Baptist Church
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You beat me to it. There are other commandments too. You keep them because your saved, not to attain salvation.
Trotter
<img src =/6412.jpg>
Until you look at the New Testament as a whole you will remain confused. You can't pluck a verse here and a verse there and try to build your own belief system. I do not have the patience to try to write out everything you should know, or everything you should investigate and study. Patience is not my gift.
I will tell you this, though. It sounds like you have been trying to mix the Law with grace. That won't work, and it has got you very confused. I have been there, so I am pretty sure I know where you are coming from.
I said it before, and it has been echoed by others already, but the CONTEXT is the key to understanding. Take Hebrews, for example. It was written to three target audiences; believing Jews who were being persecuted and killed, Jews who had intellectual agreement with the gospel but no belief, and Jews who did not agree with the gospel but had been exposed to it. The author moves from one group to another, but if you do not know this it can be very confusing. The passage in chapter six was to the middle group who had head knowledge but not heart knowledge.
Forgiving is not a work that earns salvation. It is just a part of being a Christian, like breathing is a part of living. Not everything anyone does is a work. I do a lot of things for a lot of people, but very little of it would I consider a work, and by no means would I ever think that what I do has anything to do with me keeping or maintaining my salvation. All of it is an outworking of what God has put inside me, as it is for every true follower of Christ.
The things we do are evidence of salvation, not a part of salvation. That's a simple concept, but one you seemed to have missed. I know people who would do anything for anyone, give you their last dollar, take food off their own table for others... but they are as long as a goose in a snowstorm. Some are Buddhists, some are Mormons, some are flot out pagans, and some are Muslim... but all of them are without Jesus Christ and are hell bound. They do plenty of "works" but are no closer to salvation than any other lost person.
Do you want to keep the whole Law? When was the last time you sacrificed an ox, or a sheep, or a goat? When was the last time you brought a meat offering, or a wave offering, or a drink offering? How about your first-fruits? Or your firstborn? Were you circumcised on the eighth day? There's a lot more to the Law than just the Ten Commandments. Paul had some strong words for the Galatians because of their straying back into the Law. Check it out and see what all he had to say to them.
Then you will have to look. That will involve digging, study, and prayer. If you don't want to be a Baptist that not a problem. I would advise you to be careful as many out there are dead wrong in their beliefs and theology, but I cannot be responsible for you or your choices.
I will tell you this, though. It sounds like you have been trying to mix the Law with grace. That won't work, and it has got you very confused. I have been there, so I am pretty sure I know where you are coming from.
I said it before, and it has been echoed by others already, but the CONTEXT is the key to understanding. Take Hebrews, for example. It was written to three target audiences; believing Jews who were being persecuted and killed, Jews who had intellectual agreement with the gospel but no belief, and Jews who did not agree with the gospel but had been exposed to it. The author moves from one group to another, but if you do not know this it can be very confusing. The passage in chapter six was to the middle group who had head knowledge but not heart knowledge.
Forgiving is not a work that earns salvation. It is just a part of being a Christian, like breathing is a part of living. Not everything anyone does is a work. I do a lot of things for a lot of people, but very little of it would I consider a work, and by no means would I ever think that what I do has anything to do with me keeping or maintaining my salvation. All of it is an outworking of what God has put inside me, as it is for every true follower of Christ.
The things we do are evidence of salvation, not a part of salvation. That's a simple concept, but one you seemed to have missed. I know people who would do anything for anyone, give you their last dollar, take food off their own table for others... but they are as long as a goose in a snowstorm. Some are Buddhists, some are Mormons, some are flot out pagans, and some are Muslim... but all of them are without Jesus Christ and are hell bound. They do plenty of "works" but are no closer to salvation than any other lost person.
Yep. Seventh Day Adventists say if you don't observe Saturday as the Sabbath you are going to hell. The Church of Christ says that they are the only ones going to heaven and everyone else is headed to hell. Mormons think they have to earn their way, that God was once a man who earned godhood, and that they can eventually become gods themselves. Most Pentecostals think that one must speak in tongues or they are not saved, and that they can be lost if they commit a sin and must be re-baptized to be re-saved. Every cult claims to have "the truth" that no one else has. If you drop your preconceived notions, dig into the bible, and listen to God and what He has to say, you will be amazed.
Again, you are mixing the Law with grace. The Law was given so that we may know what sin is. We are not to ignore the Law, but we are not to use it as a means of attaining righteousness or salvation. The Law is to be our schoolteacher as it instructs us of God's holiness and His absolute standard. The only one who was able to keep the Law perfectly was Jesus Christ.
Do you want to keep the whole Law? When was the last time you sacrificed an ox, or a sheep, or a goat? When was the last time you brought a meat offering, or a wave offering, or a drink offering? How about your first-fruits? Or your firstborn? Were you circumcised on the eighth day? There's a lot more to the Law than just the Ten Commandments. Paul had some strong words for the Galatians because of their straying back into the Law. Check it out and see what all he had to say to them.
Again, context, context, context. Paul was talking to the gentiles regarding their standing in Christ. He explained that the Jews had been cut off because they refused to believe. Paul admonished the Romans that gentiles could also be cut off if they refused to believe.
We have a complete free will. That doesn't change our standing with God. We can turn our backs on Him, but He doesn't let us go. God is still God and He doesn't take orders from us. He said He would never let us go and that no one else could take us from Him, so that settles it.
I pray you find it, as it doesn't sound like you have yet.
Magnetic Poles
New Member
The "pope" has spoken. There is no chance he is wrong.
Nowhere does this scripture say that they "were saved" apart from baptism. They received the Holy Spirit and then Peter commanded that they be baptized by water. We see the same thing happen in Acts 19 where Paul found some disciples that had only been water baptized in John's baptism. Paul then laid his hands upon them and they received the Holy Spirit to complete the baptism. It is always water and Spirit. Not water alone or Spirit alone.
This is why I have come to believe that water baptism is more than just an outward sign. With water baptism our sins are forgiven and we receive the free gift of the Holy Spirit.
That's a question I have been having trouble with. If we are saved by faith alone how can an infant be saved? An infant does not have faith.
The thief may have been circumcised as a Jew or he could have been baptized by John. We don't know much about him. I don't know what water represents in the New. I just know that "water" seems to be very important to Jesus and the apostles.
I'm looking for a church that is teaching the true gospel. Isn't that what we are all looking for?
Acts 10 doesn't say they were saved prior to baptism
No, I am starting to believe that works, given to us by God, need to be done to "remain in His kindness' or we will be cut off. I just can't say to myself that I can gain eternal life without keeping the commandments.
I have one question for you......why was Jesus Baptized? Because HE fullfilled ALL righteouness! We get baptised to show our love for the Lord to obey "after conversion",but if "Like the thief" couldn't do it...Jesus got ya covered. :jesus:
. No, I make absolutely sure that I know the context. I see scripture differently now than I used to. I don't see absolute assurance of salvation.
Its not that I don't want to be a Baptist. My family is Baptist. I just have to be honest to myself
How can you say that? It says they were "partakers of the Holy Spirt" and they could fall away. Partakers of the Holy Spirit means they were saved. There is no way around that.
I agree that forgiving doesn't earn salvation. But once you have accepted Christ you must forgive or God will not forgive you. It is not a question of "earning" salvation but it is a necesary work to "Remain in God's grace or you too will be cut off"'
John 15:4 "As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unelss it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me....If a man does not abide in me, he is cast froth as a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned"
We must bear fruit. It is not optional.
WHen God' "puts it inside of you" can you just ignore it? If you ignore it don't you have a "dead faith?"
How have I missed it. Maybe you have missed it. IF what you do is "evidence' of your salvation then these are works that God wants you to do. They are required for a saving faith.This is why James says "so faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead".
Here I agree with you. But you are missing something. Only works done with grace from God are pleasing to God. An atheist can feed the homeless but his works come from within. They make him feel good. When a Christian feeds the homeless it is a responce to God's grace calling him. This is why I believe that if we have faith but do not keep the commandments we will not have eternal life. Keeping the commandments is a grace from God. To reject his grace and sin lead us to hell.
So you are saying we can ignore the commandments and still gain eternal life. Where is that in scripture?
I used to read Paul like you do. Not any longer. The works of the law that Paul was talking about was Mosaic laws. The Jewish Christians thought that they had to be circumcised Christians and still had to obstain from certain foods. Paul was telling them that those works of the Mosaic law were not longer necessary but the moral law was still in effect. That is why Paul tells them "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified" Rom.2:13
That's not the context.. He tells the gentiles that they "stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches neither will he spare you. Note then the severity of God:severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you provided you continue in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off."
He will never let us go but we can let Him go. We can reject His grace through sin. You just said we have free will. That means we can let Him go if we choose.
Jesus was baptized as an example for us. He was without sin. We are not. Water baptism is powerful. "baptism now saves you " 1 Peter 3:21. That's a verse my pastor could never explain.
With baptism we receive the gift of grace.
Acts 2:38 be baptized "for the forgiveness of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"
Marcia
Active Member
Justified does not always refer to salvation. In the James passage it is talking about our works reveal the faith. If you read the whole book, it states clearly that we are saved by faith and not works. This is a passage the Mormons use because they don't look at the context.
You do not give a citation for the 2nd quote.
Rom. 2 is Paul building up his argument that leads to the statement that no one is a doer of the law. It's like me saying, "The person who never makes a mistake will be admired." Well, yes, but there is no such person.
The last one is Rom. 6:16 (not rom 6:6). Here is the context:
If you read that over and read the chapter through, and check some commentaries, you can figure it out. Have you checked into any commentaries? Have you read the contexts of these passages? Pulling out verses by themselves is not reading the Bible and cannot be understood that way.
Trotter
<img src =/6412.jpg>
Mate, you are on your own. I will pray for you, but you have it set in your head that you already know it all and are not willing to shut up and listen to anyone. Sure you have questions... but you already have the answers you want and that's that.
I deal with enough "willful ignorance" already without having to wade through this. If you want someone to get level with you I can do it, but you have yet to show that you want any actual answers. You don't have a clue about context, about grace, about baptism, about much of anything. The more you post the more all of this becomes evident and the more you refuse to even consider that your view of scripture could be wrong.
I deal with enough "willful ignorance" already without having to wade through this. If you want someone to get level with you I can do it, but you have yet to show that you want any actual answers. You don't have a clue about context, about grace, about baptism, about much of anything. The more you post the more all of this becomes evident and the more you refuse to even consider that your view of scripture could be wrong.
this is not 'saved by grace'
The 1 Peter passage says exactly he opposite of what you are trying o make it say.
The pastor who led my wife and I to the Lord was a Missionary Baptist. Fifteen years later this same man took a .38 and blew his brains out.
We always affiliated with Independent Baptist Churches except for one five year stint with the Southern Baptist. For sure, Satan attends each and every service of all churches advocating Salvation by Grace through the Lord Jesus Christ.
Infighting became so bad at one church we attended that seven individuals within the group involved in the strife died within a span of four months.
We now attend a Free Will Baptist Church. We do not believe that one can "lose" their salvation. The Pastor claims he does not believe this either..., but does believe that one can "forfeit" their salvation. We disagree with this also but the man preaches against sin like Billy Sunday and while there are a few gossips in the church, there is no outward appearance of strife. In order to fit in 100% one does need to be a descendant of one of the original families that started the church back in 1952, but otherwise, no strife.
I've come to realize over the years that God's Word is so involved, so intricate, so deep, so unfathomable, that if you really think about it, God's Word is like the universe itself. IT NEVER ENDS! How then can mortal man even begin so say or think he understands the Word?
With my very limited abilities I have come to realize that all "I" can do is have faith. For everything I understand someone comes along and points out something else. Satan is very good at what he does!
At my age I've decided NOT to worry about the little things. I have faith. That one thief on the cross had faith and he's in glory. Everything else is over my head. Faith is all I have. I'm not interested in the confusing "stuff" as God is NOT the author of confusion. We "all" need that childlike faith.
I hear that George Washington Carver once asked God to explain the purpose behind everything; the universe; the stars; the moon; the sun; life and everything in between. God answered him saying, "You worry about the peanut and let me worry about the big things".
Good advise.
Satan is alive and well on planet earth.
We always affiliated with Independent Baptist Churches except for one five year stint with the Southern Baptist. For sure, Satan attends each and every service of all churches advocating Salvation by Grace through the Lord Jesus Christ.
Infighting became so bad at one church we attended that seven individuals within the group involved in the strife died within a span of four months.
We now attend a Free Will Baptist Church. We do not believe that one can "lose" their salvation. The Pastor claims he does not believe this either..., but does believe that one can "forfeit" their salvation. We disagree with this also but the man preaches against sin like Billy Sunday and while there are a few gossips in the church, there is no outward appearance of strife. In order to fit in 100% one does need to be a descendant of one of the original families that started the church back in 1952, but otherwise, no strife.
I've come to realize over the years that God's Word is so involved, so intricate, so deep, so unfathomable, that if you really think about it, God's Word is like the universe itself. IT NEVER ENDS! How then can mortal man even begin so say or think he understands the Word?
With my very limited abilities I have come to realize that all "I" can do is have faith. For everything I understand someone comes along and points out something else. Satan is very good at what he does!
At my age I've decided NOT to worry about the little things. I have faith. That one thief on the cross had faith and he's in glory. Everything else is over my head. Faith is all I have. I'm not interested in the confusing "stuff" as God is NOT the author of confusion. We "all" need that childlike faith.
I hear that George Washington Carver once asked God to explain the purpose behind everything; the universe; the stars; the moon; the sun; life and everything in between. God answered him saying, "You worry about the peanut and let me worry about the big things".
Good advise.
Satan is alive and well on planet earth.
Jesus was without sin.....so again.....why was HE baptised? Just as an example? No my friend,He was fullfilling ALL righteouness. Can you fullfill ALL righteouness??
What happened to this statement?
Anyway, you really don't think the unsaved received the Holy Spirit do you?
My situation is the opposite of yours concerning eternal security and forfeiting one's salvation. I believe the scripture says that a Christian can forfeit his salvation by deciding to stop believing, but I go to an SBC church. From a practical perspective, both beliefs are the same, but only differ in terminology and definitions. It is only the terminology and definitions that people argue about. I accept that they say it their way, while I think it mine. Both beliefs contain the same degree of assurance of salvation.
pocadots1990
Member
Saved by Grace:
This is the first time I have read your OP and my heart aches for you. The issue in James 2 about faith without works is dead being alone. This is talking about showing your faith by your works. Works don't save anyone (Ephesians 2:8-10), but works show your faith in Christ to other people.
I too have struggled about eternal security and was confronted with this issue when a man I went to Bible College with committed suicide. The Dean of Students encouraged us to search the scriptures for ourselves to figure out about eternal security. He was talking to me because I was never taught about that in church. Half the church believed in eternal and the other half did not and it was not taught in the church. After searching the scriptures, I do believe in eternal security. But that does NOT give us a license to sin because God will take us to the wood shed (discipline). He does this because He loves us.
Let me encourage you to do this, take time to search the scriptures and pray to ask God for His wisdom and not man's.
Praying for you.
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