Legislating the 4th Commandment

[larryjf]

So, at what point does this become completely absurd. Should we start blood sacrifies again? Kosher laws? Should we just throw out the NT entirely, since OT laws are apparently all we need to keep our society in check.

love,

Sopranette

You are missing the distinction between the moral and ceremonial laws of God.

The NT also tells us that the State bears the sword to execute God's wrath, that's not just an OT idea.

Mat 5:17-19
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Then Jesus goes on to speak of particular commands found in the OT 10 commandments.

 

[Sopranette]

It doesn't matter. As Christians, we are not bound by either one, only the NT commandments.

love,

Sopranette

 

[larryjf]

It doesn't matter. As Christians, we are not bound by either one, only the NT commandments.

love,

Sopranette

Saying that you are not bound by the moral laws of God makes you an antinomian.

I guess you would like to throw out the OT.

We are still bound to God's moral commands as found in the 10 commandments, i am astounded that a Christian can even say that they are not....that means that now you can murder, create idols, steal, etc. etc.
Unless you pick and choose which of God's moral commands you follow.

Can you site a Bible passage that says we are not bound to be moral in the NT?

 

[Sopranette]

The ten commandments are still in the NT, as well as love thy neighbor as thyself, as stated in Romans 13. Killing rebellious children is not.

love,

Sopranette

 

[larryjf]

The ten commandments are still in the NT, as well as love thy neighbor as thyself, as stated in Romans 13. Killing rebellious children is not.

love,

Sopranette

Are you for capital punishment in the case of murderers?
Is that in the NT anywhere?

The NT was not written to show the State how to enforce God's moral commands, it was written as an instruction to the Church. The OT already has God's judgment concerning the punishment in such cases.

Is the God of the OT different from the God of the NT?

Didn't God say that the punishment for rebellious children was death?
Are you suggesting that God changed His mind? Perhaps He was a bit more grumpy in the OT?

 

[Sopranette]

Okay, well, good luck with that. I have some errands to run now...

love,

Sopranette

 

[rbell]

Why bring up slavery? It's not one of God's moral commands. His moral commands are summed up in the 10 commandments.

Well, since many of the laws discuss slaves, then slavery must be OK, by your logic.

 

[larryjf]

Well, since many of the laws discuss slaves, then slavery must be OK, by your logic.

You misrepresent my logic.

God has told us what His moral commands are and they are summed up in the 10 commandments (to which slavery is absent).

God has told us what He judges to be the appropriate punishment for breaking His moral commands, which i am in agreement with.

Many continue blurring the lines between God's moral commands and other things (like slavery)...and the lines between the Church and the State.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It doesn't matter. As Christians, we are not bound by either one, only the NT commandments.

love,

Sopranette

GE

Absolutely. In the OT the different laws - all of them, 'moral' and 'ceremonial' - were summed up thus: Love God above all and you neighbour as yourself. In the NT all the Laws, all 'sacramental/mystical', all the 'moral', all the 'Love'-laws, are summed up, thus: Jesus Christ! No law has been lost or abandoned or abrogated: They are all found in Christ, and Christ is all of them in the One and Living Word of God.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Bound to Christ with the 'fetters' of Love, we believe, love, and run after each and every Law that has gone out of the Mouth of God, for there is no distinction between God, the Mouth of God, or the Word of the Mouth of God, or the Will of God under, behind, above and in front of every Word of His.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"Didn't God say that the punishment for rebellious children was death?
Are you suggesting that God changed His mind? Perhaps He was a bit more grumpy in the OT?"

GE
It depends ... Our age, the age of Christ is so called for the full wrath of God poured out upon His only-begotten Son. His full vengeance, indistinguishable of His fullest bestowment of love and mercy.
My answer? For what it is worth: Incomprehensible merciful and loving Father!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Licence to sin? The asker is a fool!

 

[larryjf]

"Didn't God say that the punishment for rebellious children was death?
Are you suggesting that God changed His mind? Perhaps He was a bit more grumpy in the OT?"

GE
It depends ... Our age, the age of Christ is so called for the full wrath of God poured out upon His only-begotten Son. His full vengeance, indistinguishable of His fullest bestowment of love and mercy.
My answer? For what it is worth: Incomprehensible merciful and loving Father!

Then why punish murderers?

Even in the NT the State is to use the sword to execute God's wrath (Rom 13:4)

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Then why punish murderers?

GE

Someone told us: Leave the dead to bury their dead!

But to be a little more realistic -- come live a while in South Africa, and you'll soon enough find out why!

 

[The Scribe]

I will presume this was addressed to me.

The "stoning" part of the command is the positive, not the moral part.

I believe that capital punishment for these offenses is proper...because God says it is proper. I would not dare question God's judgment on the proper way to punish such moral crimes.

Because that is the Church's job.
The State has a different role...

Rom 13:4
for he [governing authority] is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

I'd have no problem with moral sins being capital offenses. Romans 13:4 :saint:

 

[Alcott]

We are still bound to God's moral commands as found in the 10 commandments, i am astounded that a Christian can even say that they are not....that means that now you can murder, create idols, steal, etc. etc.
Unless you pick and choose which of God's moral commands you follow.

Only 8 1/2 of the commandments are repeated to NT Christians. The sabbath is not required at all [Romans 14:5-6; Colossians 2:16]; and for the second, it is not commanded to never "make any likeness of anythng." If it is, then we violate that with photography, engineering drawings, computer icons, among many other things. But the command to not worhsip idols is repeated, and expounded to mean to not "love the good things of this world."

If you want to keep your OT approach to the decalogue, then go ahead and refuse to light a fire (or turn on a burner or light switch) on the seventh day, but go ahead and love money-- just don't steal or covet anybody else's.

 

[AAA]

Great points....

I will be getting a large multi-post together concerning your SDA beliefs...I hope that you will reply to it... I am very interested in lerning more form you...

Thanks...

 

[BobRyan]

The Sabbath should be honored by God's people. If you want businesses to close on Sunday then God's people need to stay home. (Emphasis mine)

Sunday laws are a good idea

The government is just as responsible for upholding God's moral laws against murder, theft, etc. as they are His moral laws regarding the Sabbath, idolatry, etc.

Plus this was started by an SDA with an agenda.

Just checking to see if you are paying attention - what do you imagine the SDA "agenda" would be in this case?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Please forgive my ingorance, but would someone be as kind as to do into some detail (more specific detail) concerning the OP? I am just not getting that 'click'.

More detail it is --

1. We already have Sunday laws in almost every state but most are no longer enforced. Georgia has some countys that do enforce them.

2. We also had a thread on the Ten Commandments - as the link in the OP shows - where a surprising number on this board voted in favor of the integrity of God's Ten Commandments. (And normally I would have said that is a good thing.).

3. However this also has implication when it comes to legislating religion - such as a day of worship in the case of Sunday Laws - a day of rest. (Something I do not support).

4. It was pointed out that Baptists were well known for being persecutted in the 1700's because they did not conform to many of the "state religions" adopted by the 13 states. Baptists were at one time the foremost among those calling for separation of Church and state.

(Hint: The SDA view is that outside of a Theocracy (i.e. OT Israel) the first 4 commandments (dealing with man's duty to God) should never be legislated in any way -- but the last six (dealing with man's duty to man) are often legislated in some form and rightly so.) One could easily make the case that the persecution of the saints in the dark ages had to do with the RCC stepping over the boundary of separation of church and state - trying to legislate "worship" -- legislate the portion of God's Law exemplified by the first 4 commandments.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Great points....

I will be getting a large multi-post together concerning your SDA beliefs...I hope that you will reply to it... I am very interested in lerning more form you...

Thanks...

"Your SDA beliefs" -- I have to assume this is meant for me on this thread -- right?

in Christ,

Bob