Legislating the 4th Commandment

[BobRyan]

Then why punish murderers?

Even in the NT the State is to use the sword to execute God's wrath (Rom 13:4)

Just as with the case of the Mormons and Polygammy - legislating matters regarding man's-duty-to man is "required of ALL governments" the fact that the bible ALSO gives a clear reference, a clear path for that - is not an argument "against" that legislation.

So both Murder and Polygammy are valid items to legislate with civil penalties applied AND we can "quote the bible all day long" in regard to those laws because it only ADDs to the weight of truth.

However when it comes to matters of "worship" and trying to legislate a day of rest - or legislate worship practices (prayers to mary, prayers to the dead, enforcing a day of worship etc etc) that is what leads to the dark ages because man easily get's "crossed up" on those lines - confused, turned around and soon begins to "legislate against what God has stated". Better to just leave it alone - let that be where we place the "wall of separation" between Church and State.

If you want to win the battle on a "worship practice" then win it in a public evangelistic series. Promote the event in both government and public arenas if you will - but don't make laws "requiring observance".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[AAA]

Correct...n/t

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Great points....

I will be getting a large multi-post together concerning your SDA beliefs...I hope that you will reply to it... I am very interested in lerning more form you...

Thanks...

GE

Kindly just remember, not every Sabbath-believer is a Seventh Day Adventist. I am such an one; of Reformed Protestant Faith - 'Puritan' if in England I lived; 'Dopper' while in South Africa I live.

"The Seventh Day is the Sabbath." Don't you (that's anyone now, AAA!) dare stop there and make the Scriptures your words and ideas. It goes on, "The Seventh Day is the Sabbath OF THE LORD YOUR GOD" -- speaking to YOU who calls yourself 'believer', People of God', Christian.

God said this; claimed HIMSELF HIMSELF the Lord of the Sabbath Day. Who are you who think it fit to say God's Word is changeable? Call yourself a Christian but believe the Word of God is yours to mould to your own likes and dislikes? Think you can make God finite, fallible, erring? A snowball's hope in hell have you!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Let me make myself clear -- I speak for myself; everyone shall answer for himself to God --- The 'old' Law and all 'old' Law had been abolished; nailed to the cross; obliterated: once for all. The only question remaining is, HOW? This is where the antinomian gets stuck in deep-sand. Getting out of it requires the very same Power and Grace it took the Law of God to conquer the very death and annihilation of it, namely, to break the bonds of sin, death and grave and hell, and to triumph in resurrection from the dead. Run you scorners, run! The Law is taking revenge on you crucifiers of the Righteous the Elect and Magnified, Exalted Warrior of Divine Law from whose mouth proceeds the Sword of God's Eternal Word! Run, for God would not speak of another Day again! Today, if ye hear His Voice, do not harden the heart! For there is no escape, nowhere to flee to this time; For Christ shall appear the second time but not not deal with sin again; only with sinners, and in judgements upon them. Jesters at God's Law, be converted and live, or by the Sword of the Law of God, die!

 

[larryjf]

Jesus tells the Pharisees that they reject the commandment of God to keep their tradition. Which commandment does He point to? The commandment about putting to death the child that curses father or mother...

Mar 7:9-11
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus tells the Pharisees that they reject the commandment of God to keep their tradition. Which commandment does He point to? The commandment about putting to death the child that curses father or mother...

Mar 7:9-11
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

Jesus quotes the 5th commandment "Honor your Father and Mother". The Jews had decided that it was ok to promise your posessions to the temple instead of supporting your elderly parents. This is not a question of "cursing" but of failing to support parents -- failing to honor them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Let me make myself clear -- I speak for myself; everyone shall answer for himself to God --- The 'old' Law and all 'old' Law had been abolished; nailed to the cross; obliterated: once for all.

Indeed you speak for yourself.

The Bible says "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith - God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31.

And of course Heb 8 points to the fact that in the New Covenant the Law is INTENSIFIED - it is "written on the HEART" rather than merely remaining external on tablets of stone.

To see the words above as doctrine one would need to "quote GE" as GE admits.

Hint: Col 2 does not say "the law was nailed to the cross and obliterated" - rather our DEBT owed under the law "the certificate of DEBT" was nailed to the Cross. You see God has two choices in redeeming mankind from the curse -- either abolish His law - declare it void so that it's penalties can be IGNORED -- OR He can UPHOLD the Law and ensure that the PENALTY is PAID -- through an atoning sacrifice!

One solution destroys His Word - His Law -- the other one UPHOLDS His word but does so at the cost of His having to PROVIDE a substitutionary atoning sacrirfice that fully PAYS the debt that the Law says we owe.

In the town where you live -- if the judge DESTROYS the speed limit law such that no ticket must ever be paid again - then it does not matter what the signs post -- nobody need pay attention. ON the other hand if the judge UPHOLDS the law then it means he must always ensure that the PAYMENT owed is always paid as per the specifications of the UPHELD law.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK told me I mustn't make 'promises' I can't keep. I am forced to break my resolve not to speak to BobRyan again.

So, BobRyan, quote me in context, and speak the truth for a change.

 

[BobRyan]

So far we have 8 who do not think that any New Sunday Laws should be added and 6 that say that the existing ones should be repealed.

However many have posted comments that they believe that it is right to legislate worship practices such as a weekly day of rest.

I find that kind of interesting given the religious persecution sufferred by Baptists in the 1700's and early 1800's.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BobRyan,
"Indeed you speak for yourself.

The Bible says "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith - God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31.

And of course Heb 8 points to the fact that in the New Covenant the Law is INTENSIFIED - it is "written on the HEART" rather than merely remaining external on tablets of stone.

To see the words above as doctrine one would need to "quote GE" as GE admits."

GE
The Law of God made Himself void: "emptied Himself ... for us --- for the forgiveness of our sins He descended - not others, but Himself -, descende into hell. Man could not annihilate the Law of God; He annihilated Himself: So that He might rise again, and build the Temple of God again. "We, do not make void the Law of God", we are in no position to; nevertheless we assumed position and did make void the Law of God. It was His mercy we are not annihilated, but forgiven, for this very sin.

I say again what I have often said before, and dare you, BoRyan, to make a liar for saying, What was sacrificed on the cross of Jesus was the Law - the only Law of God; and what was abolished there even before the eyes of men, is The Word of God Eternal, not mysteriously hidden in the Person or 'body' of Jesus Christ, but in, by, through, identical and fully, Jesus Christ. For so it pleased God and behoved it Him for to make reconciliation for the sin of many verily in its pinacle, this very sin of abolishing God's Holy One His Law, breaking it, abrogating it, trampling down and stamping out: The Word.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:
"In the town where you live -- if the judge DESTROYS the speed limit law such that no ticket must ever be paid again - then it does not matter what the signs post -- nobody need pay attention. ON the other hand if the judge UPHOLDS the law then it means he must always ensure that the PAYMENT owed is always paid as per the specifications of the UPHELD law."

GE
The judge: BobRyan, Gerhard Ebersohn, Potius Pilate, Cayaphas, Paul, Peter, Mary -- WE, are the judge or were the judge and we were exactly as foolish in our thoughts and the contemplations of our hearts as you here well describe! We did it exactly so, and thought we vanquished the Law of God. We availed of course, nothing, because willed not God Himself to die: die! the Law of God, He would not have and we would not have vanquished and destroyed the Law of God.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

This is all I tell the Antinomian infidels: More nails! Every one extra proves the more the indestructability of the Word of God: Every sword through his heart proves the surer He rose from the dead again! Then, what are you going to do then, silly man? For not one of the Laws of God's Law stayed behind in the grave, but as the Law died, One, it rose from the dead, One Glorified Triumphator and Avenger. Where are you going to flee to then?

 

[BobRyan]

BR:
"In the town where you live -- if the judge DESTROYS the speed limit law such that no ticket must ever be paid again - then it does not matter what the signs post -- nobody need pay attention. ON the other hand if the judge UPHOLDS the law then it means he must always ensure that the PAYMENT owed is always paid as per the specifications of the UPHELD law."

This part of your post made sense -

GE
The judge: BobRyan, Gerhard Ebersohn, Potius Pilate, Cayaphas, Paul, Peter, Mary -- WE, are the judge or were the judge and we were exactly as foolish in our thoughts and the contemplations of our hearts as you here well describe! We did it exactly so, and thought we vanquished the Law of God. We availed of course, nothing, because willed not God Himself to die: die! the Law of God, He would not have and we would not have vanquished and destroyed the Law of God.

That part makes no sense.

So The point remains.

To FULFILL the penalty that law demands is EXACTLY how we UPHOLD LAWS (or as Paul says in Rom 3:31 ESTABLISH THE LAW) every day IN ALL nations.

Obviously.

Now circling back to the actual point of this thread - in favor of legislating areas of Law dealing with "worship" -- in favor or opposed?


in Christ,

Bob

 

[EdSutton]

This is all I tell the Antinomian infidels: More nails! Every one extra proves the more the indestructability of the Word of God: Every sword through his heart proves the surer He rose from the dead again! Then, what are you going to do then, silly man? For not one of the Laws of God's Law stayed behind in the grave, but as the Law died, One, it rose from the dead, One Glorified Triumphator and Avenger. Where are you going to flee to then?

What exactly are you talking about??

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

BobRyan,
"Indeed you speak for yourself.

The Bible says "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith - God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31.

And of course Heb 8 points to the fact that in the New Covenant the Law is INTENSIFIED - it is "written on the HEART" rather than merely remaining external on tablets of stone.

To see the words above as doctrine one would need to "quote GE" as GE admits."

GE
The Law of God made Himself void: "emptied Himself ... for us --- for the forgiveness of our sins He descended - not others, but Himself -, descende into hell. Man could not annihilate the Law of God; He annihilated Himself: So that He might rise again, and build the Temple of God again. "We, do not make void the Law of God", we are in no position to; nevertheless we assumed position and did make void the Law of God. It was His mercy we are not annihilated, but forgiven, for this very sin.

I say again what I have often said before, and dare you, BoRyan, to make a liar for saying, What was sacrificed on the cross of Jesus was the Law - the only Law of God; and what was abolished there even before the eyes of men, is The Word of God Eternal, not mysteriously hidden in the Person or 'body' of Jesus Christ, but in, by, through, identical and fully, Jesus Christ. For so it pleased God and behoved it Him for to make reconciliation for the sin of many verily in its pinacle, this very sin of abolishing God's Holy One His Law, breaking it, abrogating it, trampling down and stamping out: The Word.

Sorry to disagree, here.

First, "the Law" did not make "Himself void:", nor "cause" the Lord Jesus to empty himself. He did that on His own and willingly, not under "cause". (Phl'p. 2:5-9)

It was not only "What" but "Who" was sacrificed on the Cross. The "what" was the Lamb of God; the "Who" was the Lord Jesus Christ. (I Cor. 5:7)

The law, i.e. the Law of Commandments, or the 'Law of Moses' was personally "nailed ... to the Cross" by the Lord Jesus Christ, himself. He had already 'fulfilled' its every requirement, hence the Law, in that sense, was 'satisfied'. But in no sense was this law "sacrificed", although it was then "abolished". (Col. 2:10-17; Eph. 2: 11-22)

Ed

 

[BobRyan]

Col 2 states that our "certificate of debt" was nailed to the cross NOT the LAW of God that defines it.

That is why in Rom 3:31 Paul and confidently argue "Do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God".

And that is why in Heb 8 the New Covenant as stated in the OT is STILL the same today --- the one with "The LAW of God written on the HEART" not the one with "the LAW of God destroyed".

Hence my reference in the OP -- http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1128724#post1128724 where we see a great many posters/readers on this section of the board "getting that point clearly".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

This part of your post made sense -



That part makes no sense.

So The point remains.

To FULFILL the penalty that law demands is EXACTLY how we UPHOLD LAWS (or as Paul says in Rom 3:31 ESTABLISH THE LAW) every day IN ALL nations.

Obviously.

Now circling back to the actual point of this thread - in favor of legislating areas of Law dealing with "worship" -- in favor or opposed?


in Christ,

Bob

GE
I don't understand how you can reject the one and not the other; both remarks say exactly the same thing. God's Law is Christ, was Christ, and will remain, Christ.

The Ten Commandments were written on stone not to show its durability but its destructability. No sooner had Moses brought it down the mountain, or he shattered it on the ground ... and it was trampled upon like dust -- to show how Jesus God's Ultimate Law, would be trampled underfoot.

Then not many years after the First Law on Stone, came God's Second Giving of His Law --- and lo and behold -- nowhere in it a greater change than in the Fourth Commandment! Gone the 'creation motive' for the Sabbath's keeping! Even long after, the 'Redemption Motive' for the Sabbath's keeping receives the attention of prophet after prophet ... until the Redemption came: Even the Law in Person who also was the embodiment of the Fourth Commandment. WHATEVER MAN DID AGAINST AND TO THE WRITTEN LAW, IS WHAT MAN HAS DONE TO AND WITH JESUS THE SON OF GOD. If not destroyed in Christ the Law has never been destroyed (with which you will agree I know). But just so or even more so, If not Revived in Christ the Law has never been Alive and would all along have been of no effect or force!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:
"That is why in Rom 3:31 Paul and confidently argue "Do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God"."

GE
"Do we then make void the Law of God by our Faith?" - 'Our faith' as the Object, rather than the subject of our faith: Christ, rather than us believing!

Therefore: "God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" -- we acknowledge Christ God's Law. Or does you faith do something else? If it does, is it still worth anything do you think?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

If 'establish' meant to repeat, it would be worth much to 'establish the Law'. Besides, God has often 'established' His Law Himself: "At sundry times and in divers manners".

Hebrews speaks of God's speaking, do I hear you protest, not of His Law? So until you see what I mean, God's Word is God's Law, even Jesus Christ in the flesh both crucified and raised from the dead, it's no use we argue.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Sutton:
"First, "the Law" did not make "Himself void:", nor "cause" the Lord Jesus to empty himself. He did that on His own and willingly, not under "cause". (Phl'p. 2:5-9)"

GE
But that's what I have said! Except that I didn't contradict myself like you do. The 'Cause' was Christ.