"Lesser of Two Evils" fallacy

[John of Japan]

Suppose the spies said we will go west 10 miles then south.

And Rahab said - they went west.

Did she lie?

Nope.

 

[Reynolds]

I apologize. I had forgotten, but yes, the question is there. I'm not sure why you are after me to fashion an answer that is misdirection. It's not a hard thing to do. Here are possibilities.

1. Scared misdirection: I was scared to death. Why don't you soldiers do better at defending? Your king is depending on you.

2. Aggressive misdirection: What? You didn't see them go out? Why are you hassling me? Do your job!

3. Geographic misdirection: Search my living room all you want. (The men were on the roof.)

Etc., etc. Come on, use your own imagination. Misdirection is actually easier to do than lying, since the liar must then remember what is false and what is true, and what each previous lie was, but misdirection only deals with the true.

The truth is, God was on her side. She acted in faith. She was from a heathen culture that did not know lying is a sin (like the USA nowadays). But the Bible teaches that anyone who wants to avoid sin will be helped by the Lord: "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it" (1 Cor. 10:13).

There is never, ever, an excuse for doing evil that good may come. The Bible is clear on that.

Not analogous at all. God created life, and is the "judge of all the earth." He has every right and authority to end any life on earth He wishes to--even yours or mine.

However, God is a true God, and hates lying. Lying occurs twice in this proverb of seven abominations to God in Prov. 6:

"16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief.19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

What you call misdirection is nothing but lies. The intent is to deceive. Lies of omission are as much lies as any other lie.

 

[HankD]

What you call misdirection is nothing but lies. The intent is to deceive. Lies of omission are as much lies as any other lie.

Does the sun rise?

 

[Reynolds]

Does the sun rise?

Is there intent to deceive when one uses that popular term?

 

[John of Japan]

What you call misdirection is nothing but lies. The intent is to deceive. Lies of omission are as much lies as any other lie.

I strenuously disagree and strongly challenge you to prove your point instead of just stating it as Gospel truth.

1. Can you give Scripture for the view you have given in this post?
2. Can you give a dictionary definition (or Hebrew or Greek lexicon) that agrees with your view?
3. I have given a clear dictionary definition of lying that contradicts your definition. Why are you right and the dictionary wrong?
4. Again and again I have challenged you on the Lord God's battle plan for the 2nd battle of Ai. You refuse to tell me why God is not a liar or complicit in lying, if your meaning is right. I dare you to deal with the passage. I've dealt with yours.

 

[Reynolds]

God c

I strenuously disagree and strongly challenge you to prove your point instead of just stating it as Gospel truth.

1. Can you give Scripture for the view you have given in this post?
2. Can you give a dictionary definition (or Hebrew or Greek lexicon) that agrees with your view?
3. I have given a clear dictionary definition of lying that contradicts your definition. Why are you right and the dictionary wrong?
4. Again and again I have challenged you on the Lord God's battle plan for the 2nd battle of Ai. You refuse to tell me why God is not a liar or complicit in lying, if your meaning is right. I dare you to deal with the passage. I've dealt with yours.

God can command what he chooses. Deceit and lying are the same. You are playing word games and missing the the entire concept of honesty.

 

[HankD]

Is there intent to deceive when one uses that popular term?

Good question - you tell me. If I didn't know the facts and I saw the sunrise as many on earth still do am I/they seeing reality or not?

Is it truth that what my eyes see - that the sun rises and sets upon the earth - is truth?

If it is not truth what name would you give it?

 

[Alcott]

Nobody would vote if the lesser of 2 evils were not a valid consideration.

 

[JonC]

Nobody would vote if the lesser of 2 evils were not a valid consideration.

Do you mean "lesser of two evils" as a figure of speech or literally (that we need to literally support evil to prevent a greater evil)?

 

[Benjamin]

Every thing we say or do in this world has a measure of evil in it, so what other choice have we got? Anyway, it is subjective, if one looks at the big picture as a glass half full or half empty and are they putting forth some good or just avoiding the greater evil? It's all about judgment and everyone falls short except God in such matters.

 

[JonC]

Every thing we say or do in this world has a measure of evil in it, so what other choice have we got? Anyway, it is subjective, if one looks at the big picture as a glass half full or half empty and are they putting forth some good or just avoiding the greater evil? It's all about judgment and everyone falls short except God in such matters.

We could "walk in the Light". When faced with the temptation to sin God always provides another way.

 

[John of Japan]

God c

God can command what he chooses. Deceit and lying are the same. You are playing word games and missing the the entire concept of honesty.

This is a nasty charge, that I am "missing the entire concept of honesty." You don't know me well enough to comment on my honesty. As for "playing word games," I'm a linguist. That's what I do for a living. It's not a game, it's reality.

Words have specific meanings. You can't mix up the meanings and be accurate. The evangelical term for the inspiration of Scripture is "verbal-plenary," meaning that every single word of Scripture is inspired. If you mix up the meanings (as you are doing), you can't be accurate in your exegesis of Scripture.

"Deceit" and "lying" are two different words. You can't conflate their meaning and be accurate. How are you supposed to carry on an intelligent conversation if you don't know the meanings of the words you are using?

And once again, you refuse to deal with the fact that if you are right (you are not), God is complicit in lying (though misdirection is clearly not lying).

 

[Reynolds]

This is a nasty charge, that I am "missing the entire concept of honesty." You don't know me well enough to comment on my honesty. As for "playing word games," I'm a linguist. That's what I do for a living. It's not a game, it's reality.

Words have specific meanings. You can't mix up the meanings and be accurate. The evangelical term for the inspiration of Scripture is "verbal-plenary," meaning that every single word of Scripture is inspired. If you mix up the meanings (as you are doing), you can't be accurate in your exegesis of Scripture.

"Deceit" and "lying" are two different words. You can't conflate their meaning and be accurate. How are you supposed to carry on an intelligent conversation if you don't know the meanings of the words you are using?

And once again, you refuse to deal with the fact that if you are right (you are not), God is complicit in lying (though misdirection is clearly not lying).

Deceit and lying are the same morally. I never said they were the same word. They are the same thing morally. If you deceive with your actions, you are morally doing the same thing as if you deceive verbally. Yes, you are playing word games. You miss the concept of honesty by insisting that a man can only tell a lie verbally. The deceit is the issue. The mechanism of deceiving is irrelevant.

 

[Reynolds]

This is a nasty charge, that I am "missing the entire concept of honesty." You don't know me well enough to comment on my honesty. As for "playing word games," I'm a linguist. That's what I do for a living. It's not a game, it's reality.

Words have specific meanings. You can't mix up the meanings and be accurate. The evangelical term for the inspiration of Scripture is "verbal-plenary," meaning that every single word of Scripture is inspired. If you mix up the meanings (as you are doing), you can't be accurate in your exegesis of Scripture.

"Deceit" and "lying" are two different words. You can't conflate their meaning and be accurate. How are you supposed to carry on an intelligent conversation if you don't know the meanings of the words you are using?

And once again, you refuse to deal with the fact that if you are right (you are not), God is complicit in lying (though misdirection is clearly not lying).

Deceit and lying are the same morally. I never said they were the same word. They are the same thing morally. If you deceive with your actions, you are morally doing the same thing as if you deceive verbally. Yes, you are playing word games. You miss the concept of honesty by insisting that a man can only tell a lie verbally. The deceit is the issue. The mechanism of deceiving is irrelevant.

 

[Reynolds]

This is a nasty charge, that I am "missing the entire concept of honesty." You don't know me well enough to comment on my honesty. As for "playing word games," I'm a linguist. That's what I do for a living. It's not a game, it's reality.

Words have specific meanings. You can't mix up the meanings and be accurate. The evangelical term for the inspiration of Scripture is "verbal-plenary," meaning that every single word of Scripture is inspired. If you mix up the meanings (as you are doing), you can't be accurate in your exegesis of Scripture.

"Deceit" and "lying" are two different words. You can't conflate their meaning and be accurate. How are you supposed to carry on an intelligent conversation if you don't know the meanings of the words you are using?

And once again, you refuse to deal with the fact that if you are right (you are not), God is complicit in lying (though misdirection is clearly not lying).

Deceit and lying are the same morally. I never said they were the same word. They are the same thing morally. If you deceive with your actions, you are morally doing the same thing as if you deceive verbally. Yes, you are playing word games. You miss the concept of honesty by insisting that a man can only tell a lie verbally. The deceit is the issue. The mechanism of deceiving is irrelevant.

 

[Reformed]

Deceit and lying are the same morally. I never said they were the same word. They are the same thing morally. If you deceive with your actions, you are morally doing the same thing as if you deceive verbally. Yes, you are playing word games. You miss the concept of honesty by insisting that a man can only tell a lie verbally. The deceit is the issue. The mechanism of deceiving is irrelevant.

How do you view Judges 7, considering Gideon followed God's command.

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[John of Japan]

Deceit and lying are the same morally. I never said they were the same word. They are the same thing morally. If you deceive with your actions, you are morally doing the same thing as if you deceive verbally.

Please prove this from Scripture. You can't. Furthermore, my point is that the viewer of an action deceives himself. Judging what is going on by simply looking at an action can lead to false witness.

Jesus even said this: "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" (John 7:24). He said this because the Pharisees looked at Him healing a person on the Sabbath, and concluded that He was lawless.

By insisting that an action can constitute a lie, you are headed down a slippery slope. Example: A person with a gun could see two people struggling, one in a police uniform and the other not, draw the wrong conclusion, and shoot and kill a plainclothes policeman struggling with an impostor.

Yes, you are playing word games. You miss the concept of honesty by insisting that a man can only tell a lie verbally. The deceit is the issue. The mechanism of deceiving is irrelevant.

You are misquoting me and confusing yourself. I quoted a dictionary definition of lying which said that a lie involves actual words. If you can find a dictionary definition that includes an action as constituting a lie, by all means do so. But don't question my honesty simply because I quoted a dictionary.

So, if quoting a dictionary is "word games," well, guilty.

 

[Reynolds]

How do you view Judges 7, considering Gideon followed God's command.

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I view that deception is not always wrong, regardless of it being verbal or non verbal.

 

[Reynolds]

Please prove this from Scripture. You can't. Furthermore, my point is that the viewer of an action deceives himself. Judging what is going on by simply looking at an action can lead to false witness.

Jesus even said this: "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" (John 7:24). He said this because the Pharisees looked at Him healing a person on the Sabbath, and concluded that He was lawless.

By insisting that an action can constitute a lie, you are headed down a slippery slope. Example: A person with a gun could see two people struggling, one in a police uniform and the other not, draw the wrong conclusion, and shoot and kill a plainclothes policeman struggling with an impostor.

You are misquoting me and confusing yourself. I quoted a dictionary definition of lying which said that a lie involves actual words. If you can find a dictionary definition that includes an action as constituting a lie, by all means do so. But don't question my honesty simply because I quoted a dictionary.

So, if quoting a dictionary is "word games," well, guilty.

Intent to deceive is what you are missing. Words, just as actions, can be interpreted different ways. My position is that deception is the issue. Intent of the deception either justifies or fails to justify it.
If someone asks you where the fleeing bank robber went and you say in the closet, or if you simply point at the closet; both were equal deception considering the bank robber was hiding in the bathroom. The spoken word was not the wrong. The deception with evil intent was the wrong. The spoken word, just as the pointing, were simply mechanisms of deceit.

 

[Reynolds]

John, let me be clear in what I am saying. I am not saying your deception we have discussed is sin. I am actually saying it's not. Deception for the right reason, whether verbal or non verbal, seems to be condoned by scripture. The moral object was saving the lives of the just men. The exact combination of words she chose to do that was irrelevant.

 

[John of Japan]

Intent to deceive is what you are missing. Words, just as actions, can be interpreted different ways. My position is that deception is the issue. Intent of the deception either justifies or fails to justify it.
If someone asks you where the fleeing bank robber went and you say in the closet, or if you simply point at the closet; both were equal deception considering the bank robber was hiding in the bathroom. The spoken word was not the wrong. The deception with evil intent was the wrong. The spoken word, just as the pointing, were simply mechanisms of deceit.

This does not answer my points. I assume you know Scripture. Please use it, or at least note and answer the Scriptures I have used.

Concerning intent, only God and the individual acting knows intent. Therefore, we can never judge someone else's intent.