Let’s take a closer look at the importance of forgiveness

[DHK]

You really do have a HUGE problem of understanding, don't you?

These verses do NOT apply to the new hearts of BACs (those having the Holy Spirit).
They have been given the ability to overcome man's sin nature.
They have been given the ability to have the correct heart attitude towards God.
.

No, I don't have any problem with reading comprehension.
Some may think it is a nasty post, but I have taken two things into consideration:
1. The nature of your posts when referring to those who are "BAC."
2. Your continual derogatory remarks toward others.

So, yes, you are right. Those verses may not apply to those having the Holy Spirit; but then you haven't convinced me that you do have the Holy Spirit. Does the nature of your posts display or evidence the Holy Spirit?

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

It's a meaningless concept. I have known many people who believe as you do, and NONE of them can EVER say when a man loses his salvation, NONE.

There is no such thing as a sola scriptura principle that says "ignore the teaching of Christ on this or that subject unless you can state the exact moment that God well deliver the promised dire result".

Even in 2Peter 3 - the dire result that God promised about the end of the world and punishment of the wicked - has no exact moment to be "predicted" before the warnings of God are to be accepted.

But even if you were to tell me a person could commit a certain number of sins, or a certain kind of sin, or commit sin for a certain amount of time, I would not believe this view.

Agreed - your response was not a serious Bible rejection of the teaching in Matt 18 or Matt 6.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I believe we are born again, our spirit is literally joined or fused to the Holy Spirit and we are a new creation. (1 Cor 6:17)

Just like you are a fusion of your mother and father, but you are not them. You are a new creation, you are a new individual, you are Bob.

Likewise, when our spirit is washed clean and joined to the Holy Spirit we become a new creation. We are not our old man, and we are not God, but we share or partake of the divine nature.

We pretty much agree on that point.

But free will remains - and the Matt 18 warning remains as applied to the one "fully forgiven".

We are literally joined or fused to the Holy Spirit who cannot fall away in unbelief, so we are unable to fall away. (1 Jhn 3:19)

Romans 11 specifically warns the saved those who "stand by your faith" that they will be "removed" and put in the place of the unbelieving Jews if they do not persevere in following Christ,

So Matt 18 warns the fully forgiven of the problem of "Forgiveness revoked".

You appear to argue that "by definition" the saved state can never be subject to such a condition and no such warnings should be found in scripture. My suggestion is that your 'definition' is not correct - and there is no way to clean up these texts so that they do not say what they appear to say - without simply ignoring the Bible details that do not fit OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

In a civil court - there is no such thing as executing all people whom God regards as sinners, or lost. Only those guilty of the most serious crimes would be killed. Yet in Ezek 18 the wicked "charge interest" and are killed for it.

Not a civil penalty at all.

God simply orders them not to take usury from others so that He can make himself healthy (lol), and not for Israel's own good? What kind of theology do you believe, or are you just totally ignorant of the OT law?

Leviticus 25:36 Take thou no usury of him, or increase: but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee.
37 Thou shalt not give him thy money upon usury, nor lend him thy victuals for increase.

Deuteronomy 23:19 Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of any thing that is lent upon usury:

Nehemiah 5:7 Then I consulted with myself, and I rebuked the nobles, and the rulers, and said unto them, Ye exact usury, every one of his brother. And I set a great assembly against them.

Ezekiel 18:13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
--His blood would be upon him.

Isn't the Scripture clear enough for you Bob; or are you always in this state of unbelief?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by DHK
Here are some other things for you to consider:
Quote:
In order that none may misunderstand, God, as it were, repeats Himself in a most clear and definite manner. Painstakingly He reiterates what has been set forth already, that none may despair, no matter how far from Him they have wandered. He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather desires that everyone should return from his evil way and so find the path of life.

A clear statement on the Gospel -- since in any civil court known to mankind there is no such thing as having your life spared - no matter how far down the path of evil you have gone.

It is a statement that only works in the context of the Gospel -- not civil courts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK

quoting continued:
The two roads-that of wickedness and that of right-living-are portrayed clearly. Each man can choose for himself which one he will take. But let him be assured of this, that if he turns away from righteousness none of his past good behavior shall avail to save him from death. He will die in his trespass that he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned.

In a civil court - there is no such thing as executing all people whom God regards as sinners, or lost. Only those guilty of the most serious crimes would be killed. Yet in Ezek 18 the wicked "charge interest" and are killed for it.

Not a civil penalty at all.

======================

And the solution for your view is?? Joking??

God simply orders them not to take usury from others so that He can make himself healthy (lol), and not for Israel's own good? What kind of theology do you believe, or are you just totally ignorant

oops I forgot "jokes AND vitriol"...

In any case as you probably know that is no solution so the point made above.

The CIVIL penalty for many of the sins listed in Ezek 18 is NOT death.

By contrast Ezek 18 pronounces death for ever sin.

Ezekiel 18:13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
--His blood would be upon him.

Isn't the Scripture clear enough for you DHK ??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

We pretty much agree on that point.

But free will remains - and the Matt 18 warning remains as applied to the one "fully forgiven".

You cannot will yourself to be unborn no matter how hard you try. Give it a shot and see what happens.

You fail to realize that we are joined to the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit cannot fall away in unbelief.

Romans 11 specifically warns the saved those who "stand by your faith" that they will be "removed" and put in the place of the unbelieving Jews if they do not persevere in following Christ,

No, it is warning the Gentiles that if they fall away in unbelief they will be rejected just as the Jews were. It is not talking about individuals, but nations.

So Matt 18 warns the fully forgiven of the problem of "Forgiveness revoked".

You appear to argue that "by definition" the saved state can never be subject to such a condition and no such warnings should be found in scripture. My suggestion is that your 'definition' is not correct - and there is no way to clean up these texts so that they do not say what they appear to say - without simply ignoring the Bible details that do not fit OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob

Matthew 18 is your best argument, MUCH better than Romans 11, but I do not believe Jesus is speaking of losing salvation here. I will be honest with you, I do not quite understand this scripture yet.

Sinners are never given the impression they can pay their debt as is shown here in Matthew 18. No, sinners spend eternity in hell.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Compare to Matthew 18;

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Is Jesus speaking of eternal punishment here? Perhaps, but the language seems to imply that this person could eventually pay off this debt and be released from this torment. This is never implied of unbelievers, their punishment is always said to be eternal or everlasting that I am aware of.

So, I am not absolutely sure what this scripture is really saying.

 

[DHK]

A clear statement on the Gospel -- since in any civil court known to mankind there is no such thing as having your life spared - no matter how far down the path of evil you have gone.

There is no gospel here, only works; mostly evil works.
The Lord says we must be accountable for the things that WE do, as opposed to the things that our parents and grand-parents do. We cannot blame THEM for our sins. We are responsible for the sins we commit.

It is a statement that only works in the context of the Gospel -- not civil courts.

In the Hebrew society every action they took was a civil matter to be judged. Thus the simple act of "picking up sticks" on the Sabbath was punishable by death.

In a civil court - there is no such thing as executing all people whom God regards as sinners, or lost. Only those guilty of the most serious crimes would be killed. Yet in Ezek 18 the wicked "charge interest" and are killed for it.

Your logic is lost somewhere in outer space.
No one said anything about "executing all people."

Ezekiel 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
--You can't get away with this excuse! You can't blame your sin on your fathers; parents; grand-parents, etc. You are responsible for your own sins, and for your own sins you will give account, whatever the penalty may be. This is the key verse here, along with the meaning of the "proverb."

The CIVIL penalty for many of the sins listed in Ezek 18 is NOT death.

They are responsible for their own sin. Their ancestors were not.

By contrast Ezek 18 pronounces death for ever sin.

Yes it does, because ultimately every man will die (Rom.6:23).
The wages of sin is death. Some, however will die sooner than others (i.e. those who dishonor their parents).

Ezekiel 18:13

Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
--His blood would be upon him.

Isn't the Scripture clear enough for you DHK ??

in Christ,

Bob

Yes, it is. So why do you remain in a state of unbelief?

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


There is no such thing as a sola scriptura principle that says "ignore the teaching of Christ on this or that subject unless you can state the exact moment that God well deliver the promised dire result".

Matthew 18 is your best argument, MUCH better than Romans 11, but I do not believe Jesus is speaking of losing salvation here.

Well if you can show that the lost experience full forgiveness from God - and then are expected to forgive others just as they themselves have experienced full forgiveness - you might have a leg to stand on.

But that is a high exalted view of the lost condition that you cannot find in any scripture that I know of.

I will be honest with you, I do not quite understand this scripture yet.

Sinners are never given the impression they can pay their debt as is shown here in Matthew 18.

That is not true.

Rom 6:23 says the "wages of sin is death".

Rev 20 says the second death is the punishment of the wicked.

Luke 12:45-47 talk about payment in hell - payment for the sins committed.

45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few.From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

Not only is Christ right in his claim that they pay their debt in full - He is right about the fact that some pay more than others.

Christ Himself pays our debt - and we do not have to pay that debt IF we accept the gospel - otherwise we pay our own debt of sin - in the lake of fire the second death.


Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

fits perfectly.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

Well, I try never to add to scripture. Jesus said that person that did not know his master's will but did things worthy of stripes will be punished with few stripes.

Again, this does not sound like eternal punishment to me, but I am not sure what it means.

And again, Mat 18:34 seems to imply this person can eventually pay their debt, it does not sound like eternal punishment to me.

I am not saying it is not speaking of hell, that is entirely possible, but it is also possible it could mean something else.

All I know is that I do not know.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

John 10:28-29 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know (Can you ever really know if it can be lost?) that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[BobRyan]

Ezek 18

4 Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

5 “But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness, ...9 if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully—he is righteous and will surely live,” declares the Lord God.
...

20 The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

21 “But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness,
commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.

27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28 Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

29 But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

.... 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.”


Even Ironsides did not miss it

27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28 Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Originally Posted by DHK
Here are some other things for you to consider:
Quote:
In order that none may misunderstand, God, as it were, repeats Himself in a most clear and definite manner. Painstakingly He reiterates what has been set forth already, that none may despair, no matter how far from Him they have wandered. He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather desires that everyone should return from his evil way and so find the path of life.

A clear statement on the Gospel -- since in any civil court known to mankind there is no such thing as having your life spared - no matter how far down the path of evil you have gone.

It is a statement that only works in the context of the Gospel -- not civil courts.

In a civil court - there is no such thing as executing all people whom God regards as sinners, or lost. Only those guilty of the most serious crimes would be killed. Yet in Ezek 18 the wicked "charge interest" and are killed for it.

Not a civil penalty at all.


The CIVIL penalty for many of the sins listed in Ezek 18 is NOT death.

By contrast Ezek 18 pronounces death for every sin.

Ezekiel 18:13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
--His blood would be upon him.

There is no gospel here,

Are we reading the same Bible?

27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28 Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

29 But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

.... 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.”


That my friend - is what the Gospel does for the lost.

Or did you think civil courts do this for murderers?

If so - you have not even put one ounce of proof for courts doing this in Israel.

Not according to Rom 6:23

"The wages if sin is DEATH but the gift of God is eternal life".

The wicked get death - the righteous get LIFE in Ezek 18 AND in Rom 6:15-23.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 6:23 says the "wages of sin is death".

Rev 20 says the second death is the punishment of the wicked.

Luke 12:45-47 talk about payment in hell - payment for the sins committed.

45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few.From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

Not only is Christ right in his claim that they pay their debt in full - He is right about the fact that some pay more than others.

Christ Himself pays our debt - and we do not have to pay that debt IF we accept the gospel - otherwise we pay our own debt of sin - in the lake of fire the second death.


Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Well, I try never to add to scripture. Jesus said that person that did not know his master's will but did things worthy of stripes will be punished with few stripes.

Again, this does not sound like eternal punishment to me but I am not sure what it means.

Matt 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to KILL the soul - but rather fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body and soul in fiery hell".

Does that sound like "eternal life"??

The punishment is final is eternal and includes suffering in fire and brimstone -but ultimately what happens is God destroys BOTH body and soul in fiery hell

And again, Mat 18:34 seems to imply this person can eventually pay their debt,

It does not say they survive the payment.

Only that the complete debt is eventually paid in full - the law satisfied when the sinner pays the full debt demanded by the Law of God.

This is also why Christ can sum-up and pay the FULL debt of all sin for all men in all time. The exact amount owed.

Is 53 "He took the punishment for US to whom the STROKE was DUE"

I know I know "stroke does not sound like eternal punishment - but rather finite".

Sorry but that is the way it is - no Purgatory only hell and it is finite.

Even Sodom and Gomorrah are examples of it.

Jude 1
, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

Again, when Jesus says the man who did not know his master's will but did things worthy of stripes shall be beaten with few stripes, that does not sound like eternal punishment to me.

How could being punished for eternity be called "few" stripes?

You believe whatever you want, we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[BobRyan]

Again, when Jesus says the man who did not know his master's will but did things worthy of stripes shall be beaten with few stripes, that does not sound like eternal punishment to me.

How could being punished for eternity be called "few" stripes?

Hint: there is no purgatory - no other option but hell on this one.

And Matt 18 is not talking about heaven or purgatory as the "reward" for the ungrateful servant. Neither is Luke 12 proposing some other doom for the wicked other than hell (certainly not heaven and... no purgatory option)

 

[Winman]

Bob, you seem to believe an argument can be won by attrition. Not so. It is truth that wins an argument.

I did not say anything about purgatory, I said I did not know. But "few stripes" does not sound like eternal punishment to me. Eternity is a long time, even if you receive just one stripe every ten thousand years, after trillions of years that would be many stripes. Basic math.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, you seem to believe an argument can be won by attrition. Not so. It is truth that wins an argument.

I did not say anything about purgatory, I said I did not know.

I am not accusing you of inventing purgatory and I am not saying you have selected an option.

I am just listing the options - and pointing out why some of them don't appear to work.

But "few stripes" does not sound like eternal punishment to me. Eternity is a long time, even if you receive just one stripe every ten thousand years, after trillions of years that would be many stripes. Basic math.

What is hard to escape is that Isaiah 53 "He took the punishment for us - to whom the stroke was due" and and Matt 10:28 and Luke 12:45-47 and Matt 18 describe the punishment as "Finite" no matter how many billions of years you wish to insert between strokes.

I accept that - the punishment of hell is finite - its consequences eternal - and the wicked do not survive it.

Thus Christ Himself paid the accumulated debt of all mankind - all sin for all mankind in all of time.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

Eternal or everlasting punishment does not sound finite to me. But "few stripes" does.

I am funny, I tend to take scripture literally unless it is obvious it should not be taken literally. And I am very hesitant to let others tell me what words mean. Lots of folks redefine words in my experience.

Jesus did not suffer for eternity on the cross, and he did not spend eternity in the heart of the earth, but he suffered the punishment for sin, which is death.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus did not suffer for eternity on the cross, and he did not spend eternity in the heart of the earth, but he suffered the punishment for sin, which is death.

Christ is the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the SINS of the WHOLE World" 1John 2:2

Is 53 "he took the punishment for us to WHOM the STROKE was due".

Good subject. I will start a thread.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

I never claim that the moment a saint commits a sin - that Ezek 18 or Matt 18 says they are lost.

Look high and low for such a statement from me - you won't find it.

Though a righteous man fall 7 times the Lord will raise him up.


in Christ,

Bob

I thought you believed a saint "keeps the commandments of God"? How then is this man righteous when he is a habitual sinner breaking the commandments of God?

 

[BobRyan]

I thought you believed a saint "keeps the commandments of God"? How then is this man righteous when he is a habitual sinner breaking the commandments of God?

Read Matt 18 and Ezek 18 and 1Cor 6 carefully and find that what you propose is probably not "the best policy".

Interesting that the gay marriage people don't like that when we point it out to them in 1Cor 6.

I am sure you have seen them react somewhat negatively when that happens. But we still have to do it - because cutting up the Bible to please those who are upset with the Word of God - is just not an option.

in Christ,

Bob