Let's discuss purgatory

[Agnus_Dei]

And I'm not talking about this Baptist church planting new churches. They have split 3 times, as the pastor puts it, 'over doctrinal matters'.

yes, it's funny you mention this...back during the summer i was visiting my hometown in tennessee and drove past a church called: New Progressive Missionary Baptist Church and I chuckled...

So we started with a Baptist Church...who maybe wasn't sending out 'missionaries', so a spilt was needed...hence: MISSIONARY Baptist Church...

Uh oh...Maybe the Missionary Baptist Church became too old fashion, so there was another spit and the Progressives started a new denomination...hence: PROGRESSIVE Missionary Baptist Church...

But the Progressives started infighting and finally the elders and deacons rose up and spilt again and moved down the street and started a new church...hence: NEW Progressive Missionary Baptist Church...

Too FUNNY...:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

What's next...FIRST New Progressive Missionary Baptist Church...then NEWEST First New Progressive Missionary Baptist Church (that's a mouth full)...or maybe they'll chuck it all and call themselves FIRST Baptist Church and start all over again...

I thank God I'm an Orthodox Christian now

In XC
-

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Where did you find THIS history? It's not true, I have to tell you.

There's been a lot of funny statements made over the course of these threads...but to ASK for the proof and then in the next breath say its not true, without even examining the proof is PROOF enough to me that my suspicions that the fringe evangelicals really can't think for themselves...:applause:

In XC
-

 

[ReformedBaptist]

There's been a lot of funny statements made over the course of these threads...but to ASK for the proof and then in the next breath say its not true, without even examining the proof is PROOF enough to me that my suspicions that the fringe evangelicals really can't think for themselves...:applause:

In XC
-

And the rhetoric you use in response leads me to conclude that the orthodox run the same gammit as the papacy...overbering, controlling, and cultish.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

yes, it's funny you mention this...back during the summer i was visiting my hometown in tennessee and drove past a church called: New Progressive Missionary Baptist Church and I chuckled...

So we started with a Baptist Church...who maybe wasn't sending out 'missionaries', so a spilt was needed...hence: MISSIONARY Baptist Church...

Uh oh...Maybe the Missionary Baptist Church became too old fashion, so there was another spit and the Progressives started a new denomination...hence: PROGRESSIVE Missionary Baptist Church...

But the Progressives started infighting and finally the elders and deacons rose up and spilt again and moved down the street and started a new church...hence: NEW Progressive Missionary Baptist Church...

Too FUNNY...:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

What's next...FIRST New Progressive Missionary Baptist Church...then NEWEST First New Progressive Missionary Baptist Church (that's a mouth full)...or maybe they'll chuck it all and call themselves FIRST Baptist Church and start all over again...

I thank God I'm an Orthodox Christian now

In XC
-

Maybe I should re-think my critera for evaluating which church I should go to. Let's see...as long as they have kept the same name for the longest amount of time...then it must be true!

:laugh:

 

[annsni]

There's been a lot of funny statements made over the course of these threads...but to ASK for the proof and then in the next breath say its not true, without even examining the proof is PROOF enough to me that my suspicions that the fringe evangelicals really can't think for themselves...:applause:

In XC
-

But I was TOLD to say that!!

OK - so the evidence is......where? Show me where the apocryphal books were accepted as holy Scripture in the first century when Jesus was alive and where He accepted them as such.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

And the rhetoric you use in response leads me to conclude that the orthodox run the same gammit as the papacy...overbering, controlling, and cultish....Maybe I should re-think my critera for evaluating which church I should go to. Let's see...as long as they have kept the same name for the longest amount of time...then it must be true!

well we don't have a 'pope', but Christ did promise to be with His Church until the end of the world...promised His Holy Spirit to guide His Church, to remind His Church of ALL things and that the gates of Hell would NEVER prevail against His Church...so I believe this and I don't think for a second Christ has failed.

To be call REFORMED anything, is an indication to me anyway that somewhere along the way, Christ's Church got a little off track...NOT!...:applause:

In XC
-

 

[ReformedBaptist]

well we don't have a 'pope', but Christ did promise to be with His Church until the end of the world...promised His Holy Spirit to guide His Church, to remind His Church of ALL things and that the gates of Hell would NEVER prevail against His Church...so I believe this and I don't think for a second Christ has failed.

To be call REFORMED anything, is an indication to me anyway that somewhere along the way, Christ's Church got a little off track...NOT!...:applause:

In XC
-

How do I know that your church is this church? How do I know that it's not the Roman Catholic church as they say? How do I know that the gates of hell not prevailing against Jesus' Bride means Apostolic Succssion and that through your church or Rome or something else?

 

[lori4dogs]

How do I know that your church is this church? How do I know that it's not the Roman Catholic church as they say? How do I know that the gates of hell not prevailing against Jesus' Bride means Apostolic Succssion and that through your church or Rome or something else?

As a matter of fact, the Roman Catholic Church believes that the Orthodox Church has valid Apostolic Succession and is an Apostolic Church.

 

[lori4dogs]

Translations: "Of course I don't have any examples".

When the New Church Is a Splinter
by Dr. Ralph F. Wilson
'The new church must not live in reaction but in vision.' When the huge First Baptist Church of Modesto declared its independence from the ABC in the early 80s, the faithful American Baptists formed The American Baptist Church. Pastor Mark Lambert struggled for years to help the new core group, largely formed of older members, to stop trying to recreate the past and catch a new vision for their own unique future.

The Rev. Robert Porter now pastors the 300-member Genesis Missionary Baptist Church--that left Shiloh Baptist Church in mid1990. "The group can carry the same old customs and ways of doing things into the new church without realizing it," he says.

Steve Gage pastors Solid Rock Baptist Church in Grand Blanc, Michigan. His church recently split off from Judson Baptist in Flint. Gage says, "The parting group can form a reaction to the old group that becomes just as harmful. In our church the issue was worship style. The old body had toned down from their former Charismatic days. Now the new group wants freedom and power!"

The new pastor must sensitively lead the splinter church from reaction to a clear vision so the people can articulate for themselves a positive purpose for their existence.

Actually, there are many, many examples. Check out the 'Church History' Forum in the 'Baptist Fellowship' section. Click on 'denominations sites'.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

As a matter of fact, the Roman Catholic Church believes that the Orthodox Church has valid Apostolic Succession and is an Apostolic Church.

That really has nothing to do with what I wrote.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

When the New Church Is a Splinter
by Dr. Ralph F. Wilson
'The new church must not live in reaction but in vision.' When the huge First Baptist Church of Modesto declared its independence from the ABC in the early 80s, the faithful American Baptists formed The American Baptist Church. Pastor Mark Lambert struggled for years to help the new core group, largely formed of older members, to stop trying to recreate the past and catch a new vision for their own unique future.

The Rev. Robert Porter now pastors the 300-member Genesis Missionary Baptist Church--that left Shiloh Baptist Church in mid1990. "The group can carry the same old customs and ways of doing things into the new church without realizing it," he says.

Steve Gage pastors Solid Rock Baptist Church in Grand Blanc, Michigan. His church recently split off from Judson Baptist in Flint. Gage says, "The parting group can form a reaction to the old group that becomes just as harmful. In our church the issue was worship style. The old body had toned down from their former Charismatic days. Now the new group wants freedom and power!"

The new pastor must sensitively lead the splinter church from reaction to a clear vision so the people can articulate for themselves a positive purpose for their existence.

Actually, there are many, many examples. Check out the 'Church History' Forum in the 'Baptist Fellowship' section. Click on 'denominations sites'.

OK. That's one. However, "one" doesn't constitute "all the time".

 

[lori4dogs]

That's more than one.

Anyway, I was a Baptist for a long time, graduated a Baptist College and know, as you do, that Baptist churches have a long history of splitting over doctrine.

 

[annsni]

When the New Church Is a Splinter
by Dr. Ralph F. Wilson
'The new church must not live in reaction but in vision.' When the huge First Baptist Church of Modesto declared its independence from the ABC in the early 80s, the faithful American Baptists formed The American Baptist Church. Pastor Mark Lambert struggled for years to help the new core group, largely formed of older members, to stop trying to recreate the past and catch a new vision for their own unique future.

The Rev. Robert Porter now pastors the 300-member Genesis Missionary Baptist Church--that left Shiloh Baptist Church in mid1990. "The group can carry the same old customs and ways of doing things into the new church without realizing it," he says.

Steve Gage pastors Solid Rock Baptist Church in Grand Blanc, Michigan. His church recently split off from Judson Baptist in Flint. Gage says, "The parting group can form a reaction to the old group that becomes just as harmful. In our church the issue was worship style. The old body had toned down from their former Charismatic days. Now the new group wants freedom and power!"

The new pastor must sensitively lead the splinter church from reaction to a clear vision so the people can articulate for themselves a positive purpose for their existence.

Actually, there are many, many examples. Check out the 'Church History' Forum in the 'Baptist Fellowship' section. Click on 'denominations sites'.

Hmmm - but none of the "splits" were over doctrine, were they? Yes, one wanted to have a more charasmatic kind of service. Another wants to move in new directions. One is an arm, one is a leg. What's the issue?

 

[DHK]

That's more than one.

Anyway, I was a Baptist for a long time, graduated a Baptist College and know, as you do, that Baptist churches have a long history of splitting over doctrine.

1. Not when it comes to salvation.
2. Not even when it comes the basic fundamentals of the faith.
3. Not when it comes to what Baptists call "Baptist Distinctives."

Otherwise, outside of these we hold to soul liberty--the right to agree to disagree where we believe the Bible teaches differently. It is too bad that other religions are almost cultish in that they don't have this freedom. They are like Jim Jones--believe my doctrine or drink my Kool-aid and die. They had to die in the end anyway. The Pope says believe my doctrine or die. They die in the end anyway, and without salvation. Any religion that teaches salvation by works does not teach the gospel that is taught in the Bible.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

How do I know that your church is this church? How do I know that it's not the Roman Catholic church as they say? How do I know that the gates of hell not prevailing against Jesus' Bride means Apostolic Succssion and that through your church or Rome or something else?

I was raised an Independent Fundamental Baptist...as an IFB, we believed and were taught that our particular brand of Christianity was the authentic Church of the Apostles...we were that Church...I was one of the many that would hold my KJV high up and holler 'AMEN', when our Pastor proclaimed that what he was preaching WAS the Gospel and all the other Churches including yours BTW, was preaching another Gospel.

One day, don't ask me what brought it to mind, but all of a sudden this whole I'm right and everyone else is wrong struck me as odd...because I had friends (co-workers) that were Methodist, Presbyterian and Assemblies of God and they used the same Bible as we did...so how was it that my Pastor was right and my friends Pastors were wrong? Not only that, but was the IFB Church really the "authentic" NT Church of the Apostles?

So I had to find out...some people are content where they are...my mom and dad are happy being a IFB members...they were raised that way and never thought anything else of it...why do we believe what we believe? well, the Bible says it...but does it really? what of the other protestant denominations, are their interpretations just as legit as the IFB Churches are?

I spent almost 5 years praying and searching...I talked with Pastors from all walks of Protestantism, got literally verbally beat up by family members for leaving the IFB Church and thus almost gave up on the whole idea...

But at the end of the day, this was about ME and my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...I'm the one who has to stand before the Lord one day and NOT before my family or before anyone else for that matter. I must work out my own salvation, as St. Paul puts it.

At this point I never even heard of the Orthodox Church, so I decided...OK, the Roman Catholic Church claims they are the true NT Church, why not see if their claims are true...so I spent a good year, going to Mass and attending Roman Catholic RCIA...then I moved to Kansas and was driving down the road and there was a strange looking Church called "St. George Orthodox Christian Cathedral"...went home looked it up online and thus I discovered the Orthodox Church...went to a Sunday Liturgy and never looked back...a year and a half later, my family and I were Chrismated in the Orthodox Church.

This is as settled as my soul has ever been...that's MY proof and history speaks to this proof as well. Does this mean the Orthodox Church has God in their pocket...Of course not...we don't believe or teach that salvation is found only in the walls of an Orthodox Church...but we do believe the Orthodox Church is the faith in its fullest.

So really there's nothing I can say to you to prove otherwise...I was in your shoes once...I know you have good intentions, so did I...but until you really want to know the truth and put aside your preconceived notions about the RCC or the Orthodox Church and begin to sincerely understand what they believe, how and why...it's gonna do you no good...and when and IF you do, at the end of the day, you're are still convinced the Reformed Baptist Church is where you belong, then God bless you...but it's all about humility, defeating our passions and attaining the virtues...and pride is a passion I see running rampant on this board.

In XC
-

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I was raised an Independent Fundamental Baptist...as an IFB, we believed and were taught that our particular brand of Christianity was the authentic Church of the Apostles...we were that Church...I was one of the many that would hold my KJV high up and holler 'AMEN', when our Pastor proclaimed that what he was preaching WAS the Gospel and all the other Churches including yours BTW, was preaching another Gospel.

One day, don't ask me what brought it to mind, but all of a sudden this whole I'm right and everyone else is wrong struck me as odd...because I had friends (co-workers) that were Methodist, Presbyterian and Assemblies of God and they used the same Bible as we did...so how was it that my Pastor was right and my friends Pastors were wrong? Not only that, but was the IFB Church really the "authentic" NT Church of the Apostles?

So I had to find out...some people are content where they are...my mom and dad are happy being a IFB members...they were raised that way and never thought anything else of it...why do we believe what we believe? well, the Bible says it...but does it really? what of the other protestant denominations, are their interpretations just as legit as the IFB Churches are?

I spent almost 5 years praying and searching...I talked with Pastors from all walks of Protestantism, got literally verbally beat up by family members for leaving the IFB Church and thus almost gave up on the whole idea...

But at the end of the day, this was about ME and my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...I'm the one who has to stand before the Lord one day and NOT before my family or before anyone else for that matter. I must work out my own salvation, as St. Paul puts it.

At this point I never even heard of the Orthodox Church, so I decided...OK, the Roman Catholic Church claims they are the true NT Church, why not see if their claims are true...so I spent a good year, going to Mass and attending Roman Catholic RCIA...then I moved to Kansas and was driving down the road and there was a strange looking Church called "St. George Orthodox Christian Cathedral"...went home looked it up online and thus I discovered the Orthodox Church...went to a Sunday Liturgy and never looked back...a year and a half later, my family and I were Chrismated in the Orthodox Church.

This is as settled as my soul has ever been...that's MY proof and history speaks to this proof as well. Does this mean the Orthodox Church has God in their pocket...Of course not...we don't believe or teach that salvation is found only in the walls of an Orthodox Church...but we do believe the Orthodox Church is the faith in its fullest.

So really there's nothing I can say to you to prove otherwise...I was in your shoes once...I know you have good intentions, so did I...but until you really want to know the truth and put aside your preconceived notions about the RCC or the Orthodox Church and begin to sincerely understand what they believe, how and why...it's gonna do you no good...and when and IF you do, at the end of the day, you're are still convinced the Reformed Baptist Church is where you belong, then God bless you...but it's all about humility, defeating our passions and attaining the virtues...and pride is a passion I see running rampant on this board.

In XC
-

I didn't ask for a personal story. I asked how one (I used me) can know truth, or judge the truth claims your church is making or any other for that matter.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

That's more than one.

Anyway, I was a Baptist for a long time, graduated a Baptist College

And yet, you don't understand what the Bible teaches about justification.

and know, as you do, that Baptist churches have a long history of splitting over doctrine.

Could you please name one of these doctrines?

 

[Amy.G]

Can we get back on topic please?

This thread is about purgatory, not Baptists.


Let me repeat my question from several posts ago.

The bible describes heaven and hell in many places. Can anyone show where the bible describes purgatory? What exactly are people doing to work off their sins while they are there? Are they praying the rosary, hail Mary's, confession to the priest of purgatory, bathing in holy water? What?

What determines how long they have to stay there?

 

[DHK]

Can we get back on topic please?

This thread is about purgatory, not Baptists.


Let me repeat my question from several posts ago.

There is no purgatory.
Let the Bible speak for itself:

Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Philippians 1:23-24 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.


Paul spoke of two places: to remain on this earth, or to be with Christ. He was saved so Hell was not an option for the believer--thus OSAS.
Purgatory was not an option. It was either to continue to live on this earth or it was to go straight to heaven. Those were the only two options.

 

[annsni]

I was raised an Independent Fundamental Baptist...as an IFB, we believed and were taught that our particular brand of Christianity was the authentic Church of the Apostles...we were that Church...I was one of the many that would hold my KJV high up and holler 'AMEN', when our Pastor proclaimed that what he was preaching WAS the Gospel and all the other Churches including yours BTW, was preaching another Gospel.

One day, don't ask me what brought it to mind, but all of a sudden this whole I'm right and everyone else is wrong struck me as odd...because I had friends (co-workers) that were Methodist, Presbyterian and Assemblies of God and they used the same Bible as we did...so how was it that my Pastor was right and my friends Pastors were wrong? Not only that, but was the IFB Church really the "authentic" NT Church of the Apostles?

So I had to find out...some people are content where they are...my mom and dad are happy being a IFB members...they were raised that way and never thought anything else of it...why do we believe what we believe? well, the Bible says it...but does it really? what of the other protestant denominations, are their interpretations just as legit as the IFB Churches are?

I spent almost 5 years praying and searching...I talked with Pastors from all walks of Protestantism, got literally verbally beat up by family members for leaving the IFB Church and thus almost gave up on the whole idea...

But at the end of the day, this was about ME and my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...I'm the one who has to stand before the Lord one day and NOT before my family or before anyone else for that matter. I must work out my own salvation, as St. Paul puts it.

At this point I never even heard of the Orthodox Church, so I decided...OK, the Roman Catholic Church claims they are the true NT Church, why not see if their claims are true...so I spent a good year, going to Mass and attending Roman Catholic RCIA...then I moved to Kansas and was driving down the road and there was a strange looking Church called "St. George Orthodox Christian Cathedral"...went home looked it up online and thus I discovered the Orthodox Church...went to a Sunday Liturgy and never looked back...a year and a half later, my family and I were Chrismated in the Orthodox Church.

This is as settled as my soul has ever been...that's MY proof and history speaks to this proof as well. Does this mean the Orthodox Church has God in their pocket...Of course not...we don't believe or teach that salvation is found only in the walls of an Orthodox Church...but we do believe the Orthodox Church is the faith in its fullest.

So really there's nothing I can say to you to prove otherwise...I was in your shoes once...I know you have good intentions, so did I...but until you really want to know the truth and put aside your preconceived notions about the RCC or the Orthodox Church and begin to sincerely understand what they believe, how and why...it's gonna do you no good...and when and IF you do, at the end of the day, you're are still convinced the Reformed Baptist Church is where you belong, then God bless you...but it's all about humility, defeating our passions and attaining the virtues...and pride is a passion I see running rampant on this board.

In XC
-

I was raised in the Catholic church and went to Catholic school from 7th through 12th grades. One of my best friends is a cantor and her husband is a deacon in the church. I learned the errors early on and left the church (although I attended Catholic school as a believer) and as I grew and matured in my life and faith, I saw over and over again how many errors are taught and believed in. I cannot see the compatability of Catholic teaching and the Bible. As a matter of fact, in the high school I went to, the Bible was pushed aside. "It's not literal - these are only stories" is what I was told. It saddened me to hear that. I don't get that sort of response in my Baptist church or the other churches I have attended.