Lets Obey Mary

[Hamtramck_Mike]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi Mike,

I apologize for those who failed to show you the love of Jesus and who failed to teach you how Jesus is personally encountered, how the burning love of his Sacred Heart is encountered in every Eucharist as he comes to us to renew the intimate covenant we share with God through his divine flesh.

Carson, Carson,

JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF showed me His UNENDING LOVE ALL BY HIMSELF! I NEED NTHER!

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Mike,

You wrote, "JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF showed me His UNENDING LOVE ALL BY HIMSELF!"

Yes, he did.. and his love needs a preacher.

I apologize for those Catholics who did not tell you how much Jesus loves you and how he demonstrated this throughout his entire life on earth, culminating in his great act of love upon Calvary.

 

[Harley4Him]

It's still not Mary worship Bob. But, like Adventist scholars say, some of you guys read stuff into documents (like the bible) that just ain't there. For many it's a subconscious act. For you it's an intentional falsehood.

 

[Hamtramck_Mike]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi Mike,

You wrote, "JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF showed me His UNENDING LOVE ALL BY HIMSELF!"

Yes, he did.. and his love needs a preacher.

I apologize for those Catholics who did not tell you how much Jesus loves you and how he demonstrated this throughout his entire life on earth, culminating in his great act of love upon Calvary.

His love needs a preacher? Are you saying that Salvation only comes from hearing another fallible human preach the Word to me? The Holy Spirit is a LOT MORE POWERFUL A PREACHER THAN ANY mortal man will EVER BE Carson!

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Mike,

You asked, "Are you saying that Salvation only comes from hearing another fallible human preach the Word to me?"

Yes, that is precisely what I am saying. I got it from the Bible where St. Paul wrote:

"But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:14)

 

[tamborine lady]

Well, when I posted this I thought I knew quite a bit about the RCC. But as I have read the posts about how much you truly adore Mary I think I must have missed something in the past.

Maybe there is some merit in thinking of her more highly than most protestants do. But as I think of this there is a scripture that keeps coming to mind, and it is troubling to me.

That scripture is:

Romans 1-25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


Since Jesus(God) created Mary, isn't it presumptious of us to elevate her to such a high level?? That scripture says that God(Jesus) is the one that is blessed forever!

I truly do not understand.

Working for Him,

Tam,

 

[Harley4Him]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Since Jesus(God) created Mary, isn't it presumptious of us to elevate her to such a high level??

Nobody here has raised her to a higher level than God did. The Holy Spirit wrote about her in the bible. What did he write about you?

That scripture is:

Romans 1-25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Oh.

 

[Hamtramck_Mike]

Originally posted by Harley4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Since Jesus(God) created Mary, isn't it presumptious of us to elevate her to such a high level??

Nobody here has raised her to a higher level than God did. The Holy Spirit wrote about her in the bible. What did he write about you?

That scripture is:

Romans 1-25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Oh. </font>[/QUOTE]Shame, Shame Harley!

 

[Hamtramck_Mike]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi Mike,

You asked, "Are you saying that Salvation only comes from hearing another fallible human preach the Word to me?"

Yes, that is precisely what I am saying. I got it from the Bible where St. Paul wrote:

"But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:14)

And I respond thus: I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world (John 17:14)

 

[Todd]

Carson, the stuff you posted from the Pope was some of the best "eloquent waxing" that I've ever seen. To assert from Christ's first miracle in Cana that Mary is to be something of a co-mediatrix and co-redemptrix is surely one of the most ridiculous, hermeneutically impossible things I have ever read. But oh how Catholics are marvelous at this! You guys (even the best of you - ie. the Pope) can take a simple story and seek to cram a priori dogmas into its meaning - talk about your extra-biblical spiritualizing.

What do we really find in the story of Christ's first miracle at Cana? We find a need recognized (v.3), Mary's apparent expectation for Christ to provide more wine (or at least to let him know of the situation) (v.3), Christ's clear rebuke of His mother for her misunderstanding of His "ministerial timeline" (v.4), the submission of Mary to her Son's rebuke in the light of her own misunderstanding (v.5), and then Jesus meeting the recognized need by performing His first miracle (v.6ff).

Any of the following are exegetically incorrect and hermeneutically impossible assumptions about the meaning of the text:

1. That Mary didn't receive a rebuke from her Son for her lack of understanding (regardless of what your professor teaches in local basements). Clealy Jesus chided His mother for her lack of understanding.
2. That Mary somehow became co-Mediatrix for the human race because she recognized the human need.
3. That Mary somehow became co-Redemptrix because she actively participated in the meeting of that need, acting as the "mother of God."
4. That Christ performed His first miracle as an act of obedience to His mother, apart from His own good purpose.

All of the aforementioned assumptions are nothing more than a priori dogmas that the Pope and all staunch RC's are forced to defend because of the traditions of the church and because Vatican I declared that the Pope speaks infallably when he speaks from the chair of Peter. I'm thankful that those who are bound solely to the authority of Scripture are not bound to such erroneous assumptions.

 

[tamborine lady]

Oh Harley, get real! We are not talking about me, we are talking about Mary!

And by the way, He wrote about me the same thing He wrote about you. WE ARE BOTH SINNERS!!

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Todd,

You wrote, "We find ... Christ's clear rebuke of His mother for her misunderstanding of His "ministerial timeline""

Did you listen to the mp3 I provided a link to above?

 

[tamborine lady]

Carson,

I went to the link you posted, and my computer crashed and then it took about 2 hours to get it back up. So, sorry, I can't listen to it.

Tam,

 

[Hamtramck_Mike]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Oh Harley, get real! We are not talking about me, we are talking about Mary!

And by the way, He wrote about me the same thing He wrote about you. WE ARE BOTH SINNERS!!

 

[GraceSaves]

Carson,

Just downloaded and listened to the talk. GREAT STUFF!

Anyone whose computer can handle it (most should; its just an mp3 sound file), should spend 17 minutes and listen to it.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Oh Harley, get real! We are not talking about me, we are talking about Mary!

And by the way, He wrote about me the same thing He wrote about you. WE ARE BOTH SINNERS!!

Well said.

Even the RCC admits to the "Tomb of Mary".

And of course the myths about her being "Sinnless like Christ" and being "Co-redeemer with Christ" are simply that - RC myths.

The bottom line is that she did not pay for a single sin of hers - or of ours - and "Therefore" can not be "the redeemer" of anyone.

Christ alone - offers His blood alone to atone for the sins of the World. 1John 2:2

God did not say "He made THEM an atoning sacrifice" in 1John 2:2 - but He made CHRIST ALONE the atoning sacrifice.

Coredemptrix = all powerful = titles given Mary by the RCC - are leftovers from the dark ages.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Harley4Him:
It's still not Mary worship Bob.

I assume that is where you deal exhaust your capacity to evaluate the "details" in that post given Harley.

Nice job. And unnusually thorough for your posts.

Thanks.

CoRedemptrix -

"With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ, thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother....How grateful and magnificent a spectacle to see in the cities, and towns, and villages, on land and sea—wherever the Catholic
faith has penetrated—many hundreds of thousands of pious people uniting their praises and prayers with one voice and heart at every moment of the day, saluting Mary, invoking Mary, hoping everything through Mary." - Pope Leo XIII, Octobri Mense

"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." - Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem Populi

"Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son; for the salvation of mankind she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind." - Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia

"Mary's suffering [at Calvary], beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world." - Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25


Some of our Catholic brethren have argued the point by saying "you never find us worshipping Mary".

For in support of that you will NEVER find anything like the Following praise and worship to God given to Mary.

For example see what “we do not find” among our Catholic sources…

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Merciful King and also to Mary our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your ascension into heaven, He crowned you King of Kings. Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueror of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Father, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh heavenly Father our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh God. You are Glory Oh Father. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people." – Not Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950

In this form it would appear that all this praise, prayer, honor, veneration and glory applies to Mary and would even at that small level be a gross error.

So – we sure are glad that it is not out there.

However - to "correct" that quote so that it IS "exactly" what we do find the Papal authority saying -- all we have to do is remove all the references to God - and replace them with references to Mary.

Here is the correct quote – this is what Pope Pius XII “DID” write…

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are Glory Oh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people." - Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950

"Is the Blessed Virgin powerful enough to obtain the salvation of her true servants? Yes. The Blessed Virgin is powerful enough to obtain the salvation of her true servants, that is, those who from the bottom of their hearts without ceasing ask her to help them to rise from sin, to live in the light of the Gospel, and to die in the love of God."
- Short Catechism Of Mary, Cardinal Charles Journet, pg 56


In a 1985 address at the Marian shrine in Guayaquil, Ecuador, Pope John Paul II said:

"Mary goes before us and accompanies us. The silent journey that begins with her Immaculate Conception and passes through the ‘yes’ of Nazareth, which makes her the Mother of God, finds on Calvary a particularly important moment. There also, accepting and assisting at the sacrifice of her son, Mary is the dawn of Redemption....Crucified spiritually with her crucified son




(cf. Gal. 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she ‘lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth’ (Lumen Gentium, 58)....In fact, at Calvary she united herself with the sacrifice of her Son that led to the foundation of the Church; her maternal heart shared to the very depths the will of Christ ‘to gather into one all the dispersed children of God’ (Jn. 11:52). Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity....In fact, Mary's role as Coredemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son" (Inseg VIII/1 (1985) 318-319 [ORE 876:7]).

All Powerful Mary –

"Mary is all powerful with her divine Son who grants all graces to mankind through her" - Pope Benedict XV, Fausto Appetente Die

"All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God." - Alphonsus de Liguori, Roman Catholic Cardinal and "saint", from his book The Glories of Mary

Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; The Glories of Mary. (pp 180-181)

"She is omnipotent, because by her prayers she obtains whatever SHE wills. (The Glories of Mary pp 182)

"With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to [bvenerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because,
while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race." - Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus

Can any "thorough reader" really turn a blind eye to these RC statements?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[CatholicConvert]

Bob --

Let's look at some of these statements:

"With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God,

Why is this a problem? Don't you know that the scriptures promise to all believers a portion of the authority of God?

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Do you see that? We shall "rule and reign" with Him, which means that we shall bear His rule and authority. And it also means that there will be a hierarchial ladder of authority.

Now when we shall rule and reign, we most certainly will not do so by dint of our own fiat but will instead faithfully carry out the will and the orders of He Who rules all as our King.

Therefore, why is it a stretch to believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary does not do the same thing now that we will do someday with Him and in Him? Why should She not be the Queen of Heaven, seeing that there must be a Queen for every King in a kingdom family?

for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ, thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother....How grateful and magnificent a spectacle to see in the cities, and towns, and villages, on land and sea—wherever the Catholic
faith has penetrated—many hundreds of thousands of pious people uniting their praises and prayers with one voice and heart at every moment of the day, saluting Mary, invoking Mary, hoping everything through Mary." - Pope Leo XIII, Octobri Mense

Do we have direct access to our Lord? Certainly.

"Come unto me all ye who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest."

Blessed words from our Lord and a source of comfort for all who hear them. Yet do they deny that one might ask the intercession of another by which to move the heart of God? If not, then why do we ask others here to pray to God for those things which are near to our hearts? (Healing of loved ones, a new job, salvation for loved ones, etc.) Somehow we know that having others approach God for us in some mysterious way is beneficial to our meager prayers and desires.

Again, then, what problem with having the Blessed Virgin and the saints, who having put on Christ are love personified, pray for us to the Father?

"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." - Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem Populi

Well, here's an interesting thought. If the Blessed Virgin Mary is indeed the spouse of God, then She is so closely united to Him so as to be one in union with Him. In essence then, Her will is nothing more than the express extension of the will of the Holy Spirit (Who, interestingly enough is called in theology, the "holy sophia" [feminine wisdom] of God). There is a mystical union between the Blessed Virgin and the Holy Spirit as Her spouse which we cannot completely understand here, yet which is pictured in the earthly marital covenant.

Just as an earthly father makes decisions which the mother carries out in his authority, so could we see the same principle working itself out through the relationship of the Blessed Virgin Mary and Her divine Spouse. Therefore, it is not without merit to say the above, given Her high and exalted position as the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

"Is the Blessed Virgin powerful enough to obtain the salvation of her true servants? Yes. The Blessed Virgin is powerful enough to obtain the salvation of her true servants, that is, those who from the bottom of their hearts without ceasing ask her to help them to rise from sin, to live in the light of the Gospel, and to die in the love of God."
- Short Catechism Of Mary, Cardinal Charles Journet, pg 56

The thing you must remember is that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the New Eve. You need to go back to the Garden and extrapolate what would have happened to the human race had Adam and Eve not fallen. Adam would be king and Eve would be queen. They would bear rule over all of God's creation, so that the will of the one would be the will of the other. They would act in complete harmony and unity, something we, cursed by sin and selfishness, do not understand. As such, Eve would bear rule equal to that of Adam, yet always in subjection to him as covenant head and final authority.

Jesus, the man is the Last Adam [1 Corin. 15:45]. He is the redemption of that lost covenantal headship which was destroyed by the Fall. But in order for the Garden Family to be completely redeemed, He must also have a human Eve, a redemption of the "mother of all living" who is His helpmeet and sharer in all that is His.

Only the Blessed Virgin qualifies for this, for Her creation was akin to that of the first Eve. both created without sin (one by creation, one by the redemptive work of the Immaculate Conception), both created from the rib of their covenantal head (Eve from Adam, the Blessed Virgin from the wound in Christ's side, which Blood made possible her being Immaculately concieved), both are "Mother of all Living", (Eve the mother of all who would ever live, the BVM the Mother of all who are truly alive in Christ as adopted children of God).

See if you can find more parallels.

"Mary is all powerful with her divine Son who grants all graces to mankind through her" - Pope Benedict XV, Fausto Appetente Die

Note that he says WITH her divine Son. This is a statement of covenantal unity between the covenant Head and His helpmeet. She never acts in contradiction to His will, as neither will we when we rule and reign subservient to His will.

"All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God." - Alphonsus de Liguori, Roman Catholic Cardinal and "saint", from his book The Glories of Mary

Maybe Carson can answer this one. Carson, help....

WHATwas Liguori thinking when he wrote this? Does this mean what it certainly seems to mean by the most bare faced reading of the text, or am I missing something. Every time I read this quote, so often tossed in our faces by the Protestants, I just WINCE!!

This is very, very hard to defend, however, let me say that this is Liguori's opinion only and is not written anywhere I have seen in the Catechism of the Church as either infallible teaching or something I personally must subscribe to (and I most assuredly do not think that the Blessed Virgin gives God orders -- HORRORS!!!! )

Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; The Glories of Mary. (pp 180-181)

Again, I do not understand what Liguori meant here, unless he was speaking of the rulership of the BVM which she has UNITED TO HIM. Do we mean to say that Mary, by and of herself is ominpotent? I don't think that is what he means here, but his explanation gives me the willies when read without thinking about it.

"She is omnipotent, because by her prayers she obtains whatever SHE wills. (The Glories of Mary pp 182)

Is it possible that in the perfection of Heaven, She could have any other will but that of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit? Simply put -- NO!! Her will is again, that of Her divine Spouse, the Holy Spirit of God. She cannot act in rebellion against Him. But again, either Liguori did not explain this well, or this is a very selective quote trying to make Catholics look bad.

It all has to do with the bearing of the authority of God, which, as I showed earlier, we will all bear someday in some measure and amount.

Always keep in mind the covenant and the relationship that covenant establishes with God for each one of us.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

[BobRyan]

Therefore, why is it a stretch to believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary does not do the same thing now that we will do someday with Him and in Him? Why should She not be the Queen of Heaven, seeing that there must be a Queen for every King in a kingdom family?

You argue that we are ALL on thrones - to make your point about "Mary Queen of the Entire Universe" - so "how many queens"? ALL of us? ALL the women? Just Mary?

If it is "ALL Those who are on thrones" then fine - do you pray to all dead women as you do to Mary -- as long as they were Christians? Do you call them all "Queen of the Universe"?

Or is Christ just married to his mother or is it God the Father in your view?

Why the RCC would have climbed so far out on this limb - I will never know. But it sure is "easy" to saw off.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Harley4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Harley4Him:
It's still not Mary worship Bob.

I assume that is where you deal exhaust your capacity to evaluate the "details" in that post given Harley. </font>[/QUOTE]Well no, not actually. It marks the point where you start supplying conclusion unsupported by the details of the quotes you posts. Try surprising us sometime Bob, and actually posting a quote that comes right out and makes the same outrageous statement as you! Do me a favor, instead of posting all this catholic stuff, post something outlandish a Methodist wrote.

In this form it would appear that all this praise, prayer, honor, veneration and glory applies to Mary and would even at that small level be a gross error.

I praise my children, honor my wife, and think she's the most glorious thing ever!