Let's Talk About The Word Draw..

[JonC]

Yes, I am on a phone.



Agreed



Apologizes. I seen your "I agree" statement and assumed you agreed with the whole argument being presented.



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I understand. What I believe is that "double predestination" is a necessary conclusion we should not shy away from because Scripture doesn't (what if God created vessels made for wrath). That said, it is a philosophical argument (and was when Paul wrote it) that simply points to God's Sovereignty in and over all things.

 

[Reynolds]

There seems to be a heavy focus on the word draw from the anti-calvinist crowd here. Calvinists know that the Greek underlying the word draw in passages in question (such as John 6) has a literal meaning of drag.

Non-Calvinists cry foul and say experts chose the word draw and not drag so we must be wrong. They say we "re-define" words. But do we really?

Let's look at the first two definitions of the word:






What do you know? Force applied, move to one side, pull out of a receptical, cause to come out, cause to go in a certain direction. These aren't invitations. These are intentional movements.

Let's now look at a thesaurus:




What do you know, it is a synonym of the word drag.

Do people still want to argue that the word draw is merely an invitation?

Synonym means what? Last I checked it did mot mean exact.

 

[utilyan]

What if we put aside both Greek and English, and put aside the passages where we debate the meaning (Jn.6:44; 12:31) , and just look at way it is used in all other passages in the New Testament and see if there is any consistent meaning? For example, in all other texts where we find this Greek term used does what is being drawn or allured come simeltaneous as being drawn or allured or fails to come or the coming is delayed? Is what being drawn or allurred part of that action or always passive with regard to the subject doing the action and thus the object being acted upon?

Are we allowed to ask Jesus what he means?

So is Jesus Christ wrong when he tells us himself what he means about what he says?

John 6:65

65And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”


He literally gives us clarification for 6:44.

Does δεδομένον ALSO mean DRAG now?

 

[Mikey]

Draw - something that attracts interest

Words Related to draw

allure, allurement, bait, enticement, fascination, lure, temptation, turn-on

appeal, call, incentive, inducement, persuasion, spur, stimulus


Thesaurus results for DRAW

i assume that when someone is drawing water from a well they are tempting the water up?
Words mean different things depending on usage. This isn't argument for what draw means but that argument is flawed.

 

[McCree79]

.”


He literally gives us clarification for 6:44.

Does δεδομένον ALSO mean DRAG now?

Good ol δεδομένον, the word of many meanings. Including
"to cause to happen, appoint, to cause something to happen, to grant by formal action, to cause to come into being," -BDAG



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[Reformed1689]

Synonym means what? Last I checked it did mot mean exact.

Except look at the definition I posted from the ENGLISH dictionary. You guys are simply wrong on this issue no matter how much you kick and scream.

 

[calledbyHisgrace]

What I don't understand, is why the non-Calvinists are arguing for the definition of draw that means to attract or allure?

By using this definition, there's no way that "all men" can mean all men. The Bible is clear that there is no beauty in him that we should desire him. He's "despised and rejected of men". To say then that Christ meant that he would be so desirable that all men would be attracted and drawn to him goes directly against scripture.

 

[Reynolds]

Except look at the definition I posted from the ENGLISH dictionary. You guys are simply wrong on this issue no matter how much you kick and scream.

No. Wes are not.

 

[Reformed1689]

No. Wes are not.

Then you need to do a much better job of showing HOW you are not. Because so far, you have nothing. You ignore context of verses and you ignore definitions of words.

 

[InTheLight]

You ignore context of verses and you ignore definitions of words.

 

[Reynolds]

Then you need to do a much better job of showing HOW you are not. Because so far, you have nothing. You ignore context of verses and you ignore definitions of words.

How so?

 

[utilyan]

Show me anyone within the 1500 years who had the idea of drag.
There is a good reason the Greeks aren't Calvinists.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

i assume that when someone is drawing water from a well they are tempting the water up?

We have planned many outreach activities leading up to our Easter service on the 21st. We hope our efforts will "draw" a good crowd of folks to church that morning. I assume you think this means that we are going to go out and "drag" them to church?

Words mean different things depending on usage.

That's what we've been saying all along. That's why your sentence above is a bit confusing.

Context is the key. The context of "draw" in verse 44 is clearly explained in verse 65.

 

[McCree79]

.
There is a good reason the Greeks aren't Calvinists.

The first protestant church established in Greece is Calvinistic.


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[utilyan]

Good ol δεδομένον, the word of many meanings. Including
"to cause to happen, appoint, to cause something to happen, to grant by formal action, to cause to come into being," -BDAG



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LOL, we still use δεδομένον Today in Romantic languages. I still use it. Its Giving

You can google translate "Given" ask for it in greek.

The point being its not drag and its Jesus personal Clarification.

 

[McCree79]

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Context is the key. The context of "draw" in verse 44 is clearly explained in verse 65.

So the fact that God causes the drawing some how interprets the drawing for you? The fact δεδομένον means appoint, to cause something to happen, establish, produce, inflict, to grant by formal action, and to cause to come into being helps you how? God caused the drawing. No one can come to God unless God causes it to come into being.

To use διδωμι as an "expression of geneoristy" it needs to be a genitive. Which it is not in 65. Verse 65 is saying the Father is the one establishing or causing the coming to Christ.

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[McCree79]

LOL, we still use δεδομένον Today in Romantic languages. I still use it. Its Giving

You can google translate "Given" ask for it in greek.

The point being its not drag and its Jesus personal Clarification.

You know the language has changed right? We are dealing with Koine Greek. Google translate will do you no good.

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[utilyan]

The first protestant church established in Greece is Calvinistic.


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Established in 1858, Presbyterians are all over he place. 5000 people who probably aren't even Greek

They learn the koine greek and use it in the liturgies. too hard a nut to crack. 10 million greeks.

You get one of them eastern orthodox priests out here, He is going to run circles around everyone.

Its like some Japanese English expert trying ot convince you the word GIVE means to drag a person by their feet.
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Its not going to happen, you can just see a plain biased twisting, trying to force a square peg in a round hole.

 

[McCree79]

You get one of them eastern orthodox priests out here, He is going to run circles around everyone.

So you are Eastern Orthodox right? Since they are the authority of the NT language and what it means, I have to assume you are a member of the authoritative church.

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[utilyan]

You know the language has changed right? We are dealing with Koine Greek. Google translate will do you no good.

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you got about 95% of the population greek orthodox, they still use koine in their liturgy and learn it in school as part of curriculum.

That word has the possibility of meaning drag as much as it meaning pizza.


You know for Calvinism to work a person only needs to hear the gospel.......any minute now millions of those greeks are going to spontaneously become Calvinist.

..........nope.