Let's Talk About The Word Draw..

[McCree79]

wrong name on my part , Followers of Paul,l coverts who were from Greece and Asia Minor were not Calvinists

The Eastern Church in general does not concern themselves with the Calvinist vs. Arminian debate. Soteroliogogy is not central to their theology like it is in the west.

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[InTheLight]

What do you mean nothing there about election? That is the precise meaning of election. The Father has certainn people who are elect unto salvation. He later changes, through the Spirit, their will. This is not voluntary on behalf of the individual. It is a forceful change by the Father. He brings them to Himself. Draws, just as drawing fish out of water, to Himself. It is nothing done on the part of the person. Zip. Zilch. Zero. It is the work of God and God alone.

God chose people to be elect from before the foundation of the world. He "foreknew" them. These people are subsequently born into physical bodies. At some point in their life God zaps them (regenerates them) with the ability to believe, the ability to have faith. Is this the dragging you refer to?

So when are they elect? From before the foundation of the world? Or when God regenerates them so they can receive the gift of faith?

 

[Reformed1689]

So when are they elect? From before the foundation of the world? Or when God regenerates them so they can receive the gift of faith?

When regenerated.

 

[Reynolds]

Show, in context, how you are not changing the definitions.

What definition do you assert I am changing? Word, verse?

 

[Benjamin]

So when are they elect? From before the foundation of the world? Or when God regenerates them so they can receive the gift of faith?

Apparently God had to both pre-determine all things before time and that within time He would have to take further action [irresistibly drag by force] to accomplish the gift of faith He had pre-determined.

 

[Reformed1689]

What definition do you assert I am changing? Word, verse?

Are you not claiming draw in Jn 6:44 means to invite?

 

[Reynolds]

When regenerated.

That creates a problem or two or three....,

 

[Reformed1689]

That creates a problem or two or three....,

Such as?

 

[Reynolds]

Are you not claiming draw in Jn 6:44 means to invite?

We aelre all over the place. I can't keep up. I was in John 12. I don't remember saying draw meant invite, but I could have. I remember saying it didn't mean drag.

Since even NIV study Bible says it literally means gives "desire and ability." Draw is a desire, not an absolute compulsion.

 

[Reformed1689]

We aelre all over the place. I can't keep up. I was in John 12. I don't remember saying draw meant invite, but I could have. I remember saying it didn't mean drag.

Since even NIV study Bible says it literally means gives "desire and ability." Draw is a desire, not an absolute compulsion.

You are missing the point entirely. Is that desire a natural desire or a desire intentionally placed by God in that person. You are so focused on drag that you miss the forest for the trees. The whole point of draw and its underlying meaning of drag, is that we do not have a choice in the matter. Our desire is changed purposefully by the Potter. We are but clay. Once our desire is changed we will follow that desire. It's not an invitation. It is an effective change made by the Father's sovereign decision.

 

[Reformed1689]

Since even NIV study Bible says it literally means gives "desire and ability." Draw is a desire, not an absolute compulsion.

I also wasn't aware the NIV Study Bible was the final authority in all biblical matters....

 

[Reynolds]

Such as?

1. Spurgeon

 

[Reformed1689]

1. Spurgeon

Um, a little explanation would be nice here...

 

[Reynolds]

I also wasn't aware the NIV Study Bible was the final authority in all biblical matters....

Hang around and get educated.
Some of the best modern scholars of Greek translated it. Real scholars, not people with 2 Greek classes in seminary.

 

[Reynolds]

Um, a little explanation would be nice here...

In the very beginning, when this great universe lay in the mind of God, like unborn forests in the acorn cup; long ere the echoes awoke the solitudes; before the mountains were brought forth; and long ere the light flashed through the sky, God loved His chosen creatures. Before there was any created being—when the ether was not fanned by an angel’s wing, when space itself had not an existence, when there was nothing save God alone—even then, in that loneliness of Deity, and in that deep quiet and profundity, His bowels moved with love for His chosen. Their names were written on His heart, and then were they dear to His soul.

 

[Reformed1689]

Hang around and get educated.
Some of the best modern scholars of Greek translated it. Real scholars, not people with 2 Greek classes in seminary.

That was the text of the NIV..... Not the NIV Study Bible. Even still, that doesn't make the NIV the final authority does it.....

 

[Reformed1689]

Hang around and get educated.

I have a theology degree thanks.

 

[Reynolds]

I have a theology degree thanks.

I know you do. You are real proud of it. You never know what worthless pieces of paper the hillbilly you are conversing with has.

(For clarification, I am the hillbilly with the paper pile, not DavidTaylorjr.)

 

[Reynolds]

That was the text of the NIV..... Not the NIV Study Bible. Even still, that doesn't make the NIV the final authority does it.....

You don't really know much about the NIV study Bible notes do you?

 

[Reformed1689]

You are real proud of it.

How do you even arrive at this conclusion? I mean really. You act like I flaunt my degree all the time. I don't. That's a ridiculous thing for you to have said.

You never know what worthless pieces of paper the hillbilly you are conversing with has.

Now I am a hillbilly? You don't even know me. You really need to examine yourself here as you have resorted to namecalling since you can't actually refute my points. I have reported your post.

You don't really know much about the NIV study Bible notes do you?

I own one so yes I actually know quite a bit. That still doesn't change the fact that the NIV Study Notes are not the final authority.