Let's Talk About The Word Draw..

[Reformed1689]

There seems to be a heavy focus on the word draw from the anti-calvinist crowd here. Calvinists know that the Greek underlying the word draw in passages in question (such as John 6) has a literal meaning of drag.

Non-Calvinists cry foul and say experts chose the word draw and not drag so we must be wrong. They say we "re-define" words. But do we really?

Let's look at the first two definitions of the word:

draw \ˈdrȯ\ verb
drew \ˈdrü\; drawn \ˈdrȯn, ˈdrän\; draw•ing [Middle English drawen, dragen, from Old English dragan; akin to Old Norse draga to draw, drag] verb transitive before 12th century
1: to cause to move continuously toward or after a force applied in advance: PULL 〈draw your chair up by the fire〉: as
a: to move (as a covering) over or to one side 〈draw the drapes〉
b: to pull up or out of a receptacle or place where seated or carried 〈draw water from the well〉 〈drew a gun〉 also: to cause to come out of a container or source 〈draw water for a bath〉 〈the nurse drew a blood sample〉 〈the wound drew blood〉
2: to cause to go in a certain direction (as by leading) 〈drew him aside〉

Inc Merriam-Webster, Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary. (Springfield, MA: Merriam-Webster, Inc., 2003).

What do you know? Force applied, move to one side, pull out of a receptical, cause to come out, cause to go in a certain direction. These aren't invitations. These are intentional movements.

Let's now look at a thesaurus:

draw verb
1
synonyms PULL 2, drag, haul, lug, tow, tug


Inc Merriam-Webster, Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Thesaurus (Springfield, MA: Merriam-Webster, 1996).

What do you know, it is a synonym of the word drag.

Do people still want to argue that the word draw is merely an invitation?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Draw - something that attracts interest

Words Related to draw

allure, allurement, bait, enticement, fascination, lure, temptation, turn-on

appeal, call, incentive, inducement, persuasion, spur, stimulus


Thesaurus results for DRAW

 

[Reformed1689]

Draw - something that attracts interest

Words Related to draw

allure, allurement, bait, enticement, fascination, lure, temptation, turn-on

appeal, call, incentive, inducement, persuasion, spur, stimulus


Thesaurus results for DRAW

You have to start with the Greek first Bob.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

You have to start with the Greek first Bob.

What about the millions of God's people who do not know Greek, David? Would they, from the context of this passage, conclude that it meant "drag"?

 

[Reformed1689]

What about the millions of God's people who do not know Greek, David? Would they, from the context of this passage, conclude that it meant "drag"?

1. How is that even relevant? 2. That's not a good basis for how to do exegesis. 3. They could definitely conclude that if they study their English dictionaries as I have already shown.

 

[JonC]

Draw is like Spurgeon drawing on a cigar. He pulls the smoke in his lungs and praises God as he exhales (except there is no exhale in drawing....you're in there for good).

 

[Pastor_Bob]

1. How is that even relevant?

It is very relevant if you believe that God has preserved His Word for hose of us who speak and read English. Do you believe the translators made a mistake when they translated helkuo as "draw"?

2. That's not a good basis for how to do exegesis.

I think we found the problem. Context is the key for proper exegesis.

3. They could definitely conclude that if they study their English dictionaries as I have already shown.

Then, you do accept the definition of "draw" that I posted from the English dictionary, right?

 

[Reformed1689]

It is very relevant if you believe that God has preserved His Word for hose of us who speak and read English. Do you believe the translators made a mistake when they translated helkuo as "draw"?

No, this whole thread is about why the word draw is appropriate.

I think we found the problem. Context is the key for proper exegesis.

Exactly, which is why you are wrong on this issue.

Then, you do accept the definition of "draw" that I posted from the English dictionary, right?

Of course I do. But that definition for the usage in Scripture only works if you ignore the Greek.

 

[utilyan]

There seems to be a heavy focus on the word draw from the anti-calvinist crowd here. Calvinists know that the Greek underlying the word draw in passages in question (such as John 6) has a literal meaning of drag.

Non-Calvinists cry foul and say experts chose the word draw and not drag so we must be wrong. They say we "re-define" words. But do we really?

Let's look at the first two definitions of the word:






What do you know? Force applied, move to one side, pull out of a receptical, cause to come out, cause to go in a certain direction. These aren't invitations. These are intentional movements.

Let's now look at a thesaurus:




What do you know, it is a synonym of the word drag.

Do people still want to argue that the word draw is merely an invitation?

The absolute source and essence of any Good act is God. God is absolutely required a person can't even breathe one breathe without GOD doing the drawing.

Explain how you tell your blood cells to receive oxygen through your lungs. I don't have the slightest clue how that works, Clearly GOD Draws every breathe.


John 6

36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.


He addresses those who don't believe. Which would be kinda absurd if they can't believe anything to mention anything at all.

 

[Reformed1689]

The absolute source and essence of any Good act is God. God is absolutely required a person can't even breathe one breathe without GOD doing the drawing.

Explain how you tell your blood cells to receive oxygen through your lungs. I don't have the slightest clue how that works, Clearly GOD Draws every breathe.


John 6

36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.


He addresses those who don't believe. Which would be kinda absurd if they can't believe anything to mention anything at all.

What does your illustration have to do with salvation?

 

[Lodic]

There seems to be a heavy focus on the word draw from the anti-calvinist crowd here. Calvinists know that the Greek underlying the word draw in passages in question (such as John 6) has a literal meaning of drag.

Non-Calvinists cry foul and say experts chose the word draw and not drag so we must be wrong. They say we "re-define" words. But do we really?

Let's look at the first two definitions of the word:




What do you know? Force applied, move to one side, pull out of a receptical, cause to come out, cause to go in a certain direction. These aren't invitations. These are intentional movements.

Let's now look at a thesaurus:


What do you know, it is a synonym of the word drag.

Do people still want to argue that the word draw is merely an invitation?

Could you elaborate just a bit, David? How does "drawing us to Him" relate to free will? I'm not arguing the point, but I don't understand. With your help, maybe I can. After reading a lot of your posts, I've come to respect your views.

 

[utilyan]

What does your illustration have to do with salvation?

I think we are reading in too much when equating the draw as the finish line of salvation.

I think its matter of forcing a square peg into a round hole folks prefer DRAG because it implies the irresistible grace.

I see connection of "all that He has given Me" as the Draw/Dragged. In John 6 with the "given" john 17.

At the end of John 6 only guys left are the apostles + Judas, which is also identified as a "given" that is lost in John 17.

None of us are the "given" drawn by the Father. We get prayed for after:

John 17

20“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

We are handled by Jesus Christ:

John 12

32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Here we have Jesus Drawing/ "dragging" all men.

So when someone looks at this they figure a definition has to bend or break, If we hold you up to drag....... They choose the word "all". Because it will look like irresistible universalism.

Again I think the issue equating Draw/Drag to the finish line of salvation. Which is not the case and it was not the case for the "given" Judas who was drawn and chosen was lost.

 

[Reformed1689]

I think its matter of forcing a square peg into a round hole folks prefer DRAG because it implies the irresistible grace.

No, I prefer drag because that is what the word actually means.

John 12

32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Here we have Jesus Drawing/ "dragging" all men.

It does not say all men.

 

[utilyan]

No, I prefer drag because that is what the word actually means.

It does not say all men.

"No, I prefer drag because that is what the word actually means."

If you say so, how bout we just ask Jesus what he means?

Jesus says:
65And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

Basically gives his own commentary. He tells you exactly what he means. Does that look like by force?

Even when he talks bout kingdom of heaven its like a wedding something permitted into rather then a draft or enslavement.


Now if you didn't get that till now does that mean you have not been granted the Gnostic regeneration to understand yet?


" It does not say all men"

So what would it have to say to mean all men if it just says:

John 12
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

?

 

[Reformed1689]

John 12
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

?

The ORIGINAL GREEK does not say all men.

 

[Benjamin]

Looking at another use of the word “draw”.

According to the Calvinists’ definition of “draw” we must always fall into temptation, no choice.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

If “draw” truly means forcefully drag how could man ever resist temptations?

Such interpretation violates 1 Corinthians 10:13 wherein God says we can always overcome temptation:

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

In fact, the Word says man is blessed when he overcomes temptation:

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

However, if temptation means we are forcibly dragged (“drawn”) by our lusts, how can we resist?

Seems to me the Calvinist interpretation that “draw” must mean to irresistibly “drag” doesn’t hold.

 

[Reformed1689]

Looking at another use of the word “draw”.

According to the Calvinists’ definition of “draw” we must always fall into temptation, no choice.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

If “draw” truly means forcefully drag how could man ever resist temptations?

Such interpretation violates 1 Corinthians 10:13 wherein God says we can always overcome temptation:

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

In fact, the Word says man is blessed when he overcomes temptation:

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

However, if temptation means we are forcibly dragged (“drawn”) by our lusts, how can we resist?

Seems to me the Calvinist interpretation that “draw” must mean “drag” doesn’t hold.

And you would be right if James 1:14 had the same Greek word as John 6. Unfortunately you have two problems here. 1. It is not the exact same word. 2. Your exegesis of the James passage is not accurate. Context my friend, context.

 

[Benjamin]

And you would be right if James 1:14 had the same Greek word as John 6. Unfortunately you have two problems here. 1. It is not the exact same word. 2. Your exegesis of the James passage is not accurate. Context my friend, context.

A word of advise, you use that superior context argument of yours a bit too often.

Comparing context helps reveal the true meaning:

"James 1:14 – ἐξελκόμενος – Being Drawn Away [Present Participle Middle]

from ἐξέλκω [to entice (Strong’s); to drag out (Mounce)] – from ἐξ – [out of] and ἑλκύω – to drag

Therefore; to ‘drag out of’.

John 6:44 – ἑλκύσῃ – Draws [Aorist Subjunctive Active]

From ἑλκύω – to drag

The word “draw” in James 1:14 and John 6:44 comes from the same Greek word – ἑλκύω. The Preposition ἐξ doesn’t alter its mean rather, provides clarity of being dragged ‘out of’."

 

[Reformed1689]

The word “draw” in James 1:14 and John 6:44 comes from the same Greek word – ἑλκύω. The Preposition ἐξ doesn’t alter its mean rather, provides clarity of being dragged ‘out of’.

They come from the same ROOT word. But they have different connotations. One has the sense of dragging or hauling, the other has the sense of dragging away via enticement. That is not the same thing.

 

[Reformed1689]

A word of advise, you use that superior context argument of yours a bit too often.

Yeah because apparently people here don't know how to look at context of passages.