Liberty! The Christian, wine and cigars?

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Bartimaeus:
Howdy Y'all,
Ever seen these before?
"Woe to him that giveth his neighbor drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness! Thou art filled with shame for glory, drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered: the cup of the Lord's right hand shall be turned unto thee, and shameful spewing shall be on thy glory."
Hab 2:15-16

Isn't yeast and leaven the same thing? Leaven is always a "type" of sin. Would passover wine be leavened?
Drink up Brothers! Rationalize, Entertain your best desires, but remember Payday, Someday.

Hey, Bart,

The key words here in the verse are "...and makest him drunken also that thou may look upon his nakedness".

That's not what we're talking about here.

I think we're all agreed that drinking to excess is wrong and getting somebody drunk for illicit purposes is wrong.

What does this verse have to do with the person who enjoys an occasional glass of wine (or beer) with dinner or drinks in moderation?

Mike

 

[russell55]

Isn't yeast and leaven the same thing? Leaven is always a "type" of sin.

Well, yeast is indeed leaven. And yes, sometimes leaven is used in scripture to illustrate properties of sin.

But it is also used to illustrate properties of the kingdom of God.....

"To what shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened." (Luke 13:20)

So, if leaven in and of itself were bad, why did Jesus say the kingdom of God is like leaven?

 

[aiki]

Well, Scott, I did a quick net search for info. on alcohol and its toxic effect on the body and found that there is plenty of supporting info. available for what I have said. It seems that your liver always pays a price for consuming alcohol -- even in minor amounts. No matter how you slice it, ethyl alcohol is processed in the body as a toxic chemical.

I would not go so far as to say that one who drinks wine in moderate amounts is sinning, but I am without hesitation in viewing this practice as highly foolish. I put drinking alcohol in the "weight" category (Heb. 12:1). Its risks obviously outweigh its benefits and so I abstain.

Scott, I wouldn't mind a clarification of your comment that my remarks about alcohol and holiness are "preposterous" when contrasted to the life of Christ.

 

[Brian]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey:
[QB]Hey Brian,
Thanks for your response.
You write:
"If we truly strive to be Christ like we would avoid even the appearence of evil."

Scott responds:
How can we contrast your statement to our supreme example, that being our savior. His comments to the Pharisees disclose the rightful truth. How about Paul exhorting Tim to *take some wine for your stomachs sake*? The Lords supper utilized wine? I ask, is partaking of wine evil or has society taken something of a blessing and given it to the dogs?

new part Brian responds:

Paul also teaches that we are not to do anything that might interfere with someone else's salvation or their walk with God. That is the point I'm making. If it were that there was no condemnation in the minds of the people around us drinking wine (the example here) would not be an issue. Analogies break down so don't take this one too far. In our society bottled water is a very common thing and no one preaches against it. If it were to be that by drinking bottled water I minght cause my brother to sin or stumble then for me to drink the bottled water is sin.

I said that to say this because society precives the wine as evil I must abstain. Also I highly recomend any who claim Christ as savior do the same.

In Christ
B.

 

[Brian]

Originally posted by Rev. Joshua Villines:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brian:
If we truly strive to be Christ like we would avoid even the appearence of evil.

Christ did exactly the opposite. It was one of the primary charges against him that he did not behave in a matter befitting a pious teacher.

Joshua</font>[/QUOTE]Joshua are you suggesting that Jesus acted in a sinful manner?

 

[Bartimaeus]

Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:

Hey, Bart,

The key words here in the verse are "...and makest him drunken also that thou may look upon his nakedness".

That's not what we're talking about here.

I think we're all agreed that drinking to excess is wrong and getting somebody drunk for illicit purposes is wrong.

What does this verse have to do with the person who enjoys an occasional glass of wine (or beer) with dinner or drinks in moderation?

Smokeater
Thank you, I may have been off point with that verse. There has been reference I believe that the Lord may have served alcoholic beverage. When he turned the water into wine, and departed, did he not know that to serve something that could be like a lion loose from a cage would be "woe" or in other words judgement upon him?
I've been a Christian for a long time and it is unbelievable that everytime the subject of "liberty" is raised, it is in regard to some kind of act that a Christian wants to delve into that is so closely related to "love not the world, neither the things that are in the world... or whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God..."
Question: What does the Bible say about judgement upon the drunkard? How does one get to be a drunkard? I have an answer, however for those who want to flirt with fire, it is not popular. A drunkard must first be a drinker in moderation. What road are you on? What road do you teach others is "expedient" (Bible). The greatest homewrecker of this nation has been the bottle. Lot started as a "moderate". He lost his wife, children and Godly testimony. Go ahead, Payday, Someday.

 

[Bartimaeus]

Russell55:

Originally posted by russell55:
.

Well, yeast is indeed leaven. And yes, sometimes leaven is used in scripture to illustrate properties of sin.

But it is also used to illustrate properties of the kingdom of God.....

"To what shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened." (Luke 13:20)

So, if leaven in and of itself were bad, why did Jesus say the kingdom of God is like leaven?[/QB][/QUOTE]

Look at the same parable in Mt. 13:33. The "leaven" of the Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto the "tares" in the kingdom which are children of the wicked one. (vs38)
A little more Bible reading shows that leaven is always a picture of sin.
Who are the bedbuddies of the drink. The curse of God, poverty, lewdness, contention, shame, slavery.
Go ahead Brothers, drink. Payday, Someday.

 

[pinoybaptist]

smoking is bad for the body, bad for the breath,
and just plain bad. but not sin !
Therein lies the difference. I think it first became classified and preached as sin in the early 60's when the surgeon general came out with his warning about tobacco.
If smoking is sin because it is bad for the body, then being overweight is sin (but what if your overweight is genetic ? homosexuals will sure jump on that !), and, pray tell, how many pastors, elders, and deacons have waists way above the healthy inches ?
Come to think of it, so would excessive consumption of caffeine and cola (I can see the grin on the Mormons' faces here), and so would a lot of other things in this world (like breathing the air which is full of you-name-it-it's-probably-there).
Alcohol ? Not sin either.
The problem with alcohol consumption is that it &lt;b&gt; causes &lt;/b&gt; one to sin when taken in excess and the spirit of wine controls us rather than the Spirit of God. &lt;p&gt; On the other hand, I've known guys whose lips glue together tighter and tighter as they drink more and more alcohol stuff.
But they're the exception to the rule, if you know what I mean.
Abstinence is okay, for the right reason.
I just do not believe we should be preaching tobacco use as sin, which it is not.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Bartimaeus:
Smokeater,
Thank you, I may have been off point with that verse. There has been reference I believe that the Lord may have served alcoholic beverage. When he turned the water into wine, and departed, did he not know that to serve something that could be like a lion loose from a cage would be "woe" or in other words judgement upon him?
I've been a Christian for a long time and it is unbelievable that everytime the subject of "liberty" is raised, it is in regard to some kind of act that a Christian wants to delve into that is so closely related to "love not the world, neither the things that are in the world... or whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God..."
Question: What does the Bible say about judgement upon the drunkard? How does one get to be a drunkard? I have an answer, however for those who want to flirt with fire, it is not popular. A drunkard must first be a drinker in moderation. What road are you on? What road do you teach others is "expedient" (Bible). The greatest homewrecker of this nation has been the bottle. Lot started as a "moderate". He lost his wife, children and Godly testimony. Go ahead, Payday, Someday.[/QB]

Hi Bart,

A drunkard may or may not start out as a "moderate" drinker, but it doesn't neccessarily follow that all moderate drinkers become "drunkards".

I think that to say that drunkards start out as moderate drinkers says a lot more about the drunkard than it does about the moderate drinker.

Mike

 

[russell55]

Look at the same parable in Mt. 13:33. The "leaven" of the Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto the "tares" in the kingdom which are children of the wicked one. (vs38)
A little more Bible reading shows that leaven is always a picture of sin.

Ah, come on! It is the Kingdom of God that Jesus likens to leaven--not the tares in the kingdom God. The parable of the wheat and tares is a whole different parable, with the parable of the mustard seed falling in between the parable of the wheat and the parable of the leaven. You really must read your own presuppostion (leaven is always bad) into the text, making Jesus' words actually "The tare in the K of G are like leaven" rather than Jesus's actual words, which are "The K of G is like leaven", in order to come up with your interpretation.

The parable likening the K of G to leaven has the same point as the one immediately preceding it--the mustard seed: The kingdom of God starts small, but eventually permeates the whole world.

Really! The twisting and turning of the plain text of scripture that is necessary to defend the abstinence for all side of this issue never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Aiki,
You write:
"Well, Scott, I did a quick net search for info. on alcohol and its toxic effect on the body and found that there is plenty of supporting info. available for what I have said."

Scott responds:
The studies at large and the accepted idea within the medical industry is that alcohol at high levels is contraindicated. It is a toxin. However, we are not talking about overindulgences.
It is also a medically proven fact that alcohol in low levels (2 oz's daily) is beneficial in many ways and is non toxic; ask any M.D.
The info you have found is either focused on overindulgences and abuse or is a unfounded, unbalanced, non medical study. I am a cardiologic nurse and have worked for one of the nations largest healthcare facilities. This line of thinking that you have posed is not at all consistant with any major works done on the subject.

You also write:
"It seems that your liver always pays a price for consuming alcohol -- even in minor amounts."

Scott asks:
Please provide the information as I have never heard this before. Not to toot my horn or anything, but I used to scrub for a invasive cardiac surgeon here in Ft. Lauderdale. The doctor was the 2nd man trained in doing cardiac catheterizations by the inventor @ the Cleveland Clinic. He loved wine. The last cardio conference I went to, the doctors were overly *enthusiastic* about the wine they drank. In small amounts, alcohol is beneficial....God says so. So did Paul!

You write:
"I would not go so far as to say that one who drinks wine in moderate amounts is sinning, but I am without hesitation in viewing this practice as highly foolish."

Jesus did'nt think so........Nazarites thought so highly of grapes and wine that they were to *fast* from it. Eventually after their vow had been fulfilled they partook. Immediately the fast ended. See below.

Num 6:13 And this is the law of the Nazarite, when the days of his separation are fulfilled: he shall be brought unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:
Num 6:14 And he shall offer his offering unto the LORD, one he lamb of the first year without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish for a sin offering, and one ram without blemish for peace offerings,
Num 6:15 And a basket of unleavened bread, cakes of fine flour mingled with oil, and wafers of unleavened bread anointed with oil, and their meat offering, and their drink offerings.
Num 6:16 And the priest shall bring them before the LORD, and shall offer his sin offering, and his burnt offering:
Num 6:17 And he shall offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, with the basket of unleavened bread: the priest shall offer also his meat offering, and his drink offering.
Num 6:18 And the Nazarite shall shave the head of his separation at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall take the hair of the head of his separation, and put it in the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offerings.
Num 6:19 And the priest shall take the sodden shoulder of the ram, and one unleavened cake out of the basket, and one unleavened wafer, and shall put them upon the hands of the Nazarite, after the hair of his separation is shaven:
Num 6:20 And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine .

Your ending question:
"Scott, I wouldn't mind a clarification of your comment that my remarks about alcohol and holiness are "preposterous" when contrasted to the life of Christ."

The Pharisees called Jesus a wino. Christ himself compared Himself to John the Baptist, the Nazarite who did not partake at all (based on his vow). Everyone knows that Christ hung out with people who drank and that he kept the *best wine for last* (The wedding @ Cana). Aiki, do you truly believe that wedding celebrations 2000 yrs ago (especially among the secular)were any different from today? Jesus saved the *best* for last!
My comment about the contrast being preposterous is relevant. It does not resolve itself when sitting side by side with scriptural harmony. Holiness and partaking have no relevance. One who partakes is no less (or more) holy than one who does not. This ideaology is contrabiblical.

In His graces,
Scott Bushey

[ April 09, 2002, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

[Rev. Joshua]

For you tea-totallers out there, if there were a group of people who would only take your witness seriously if you were to sit down and drink a beer or glass of wine with them - would you do it?

Would Jesus?

Joshua

 

[10usNE1]

I'm curious, is there a wine made that doesn't taste like cough syrup?

Cindy

 

[rsr]

First, I agree with the majority of the posters that there is no Biblical injunction against moderate use of alcohol.

But ... as Bro. Clint has pointed out, drinking is not safe for everyone. I think if there is a history of alcoholism in your family, it's safest not to start drinking. It's an individual decision that must be based on your own circumstances.

 

[ChristianCynic]

&lt; For you tea-totallers out there, if there were a group of people who would only take your witness seriously if you were to sit down and drink a beer or glass of wine with them - would you do it? &gt;

Any such people are only testing the extent of your behavior, not seeking to "take your witness seriously." I do not answer this question as a "tea-totaller" [and actually it is teetotaller], however. But if your posts are an accurate guide, Joshie, it is likely accurate to assume you would do.. anything they desired ... to get somebody to take your "witness" seriously-- which is not a very serious witness to begin with.

&lt; Would Jesus? &gt;

Nope. There were some who would not take Jesus' 'witness' seriously unless he gave them a "sign" to suit their fancy, and he wouldn't bite (Matthew 12:38,39). Standing before the mobs while on trial, Jesus refused to say or do the things that would please his accusers and get them to take his 'witness' seriously. And he refused to save himself and the thief on his left just because that thief would not "take his witness seriously" unless he did (luke 23:40-42). No, Jesus was no Charlie the Tuna who would try to grab for any bait, bud.

[ April 09, 2002, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: ChristianCynic ]

 

[LadyEagle]

Well!!

I am just speechless and completely blown away by this thread!

When does the party begin?

 

[Rev. Joshua]

CC,

Unsurprisingly, I completely disagree with your perspective here. It is abundantly clear from Jesus' ministry that he knew that obsessive legalism was a bar to authentic ministry and that he consequently acted in ways that made it clear that he was focused on people's hearts.

When someone ignores the witness of a teetotaller (thanks for the correction by the way - it led me to look up the origins of the word), it's because they have no reason to take that person seriously.

You are right that part of my ministerial identity is not maintaining a false facade of how I think a minister should be perceived. I don't set out to change my behaviors to accomodate anyone's misconceptions (nor would I ever compromise my principles in the hopes of gaining an "in" with someone); but I do hope that by behaving with integrity people will respond to my authenticity. This has proven to be the case in the past. More importantly, it seems to be the most faithful to the example of Jesus.

Joshua

[ April 09, 2002, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Rev. Joshua Villines ]

 

[Bartimaeus]

Originally posted by russell55:
[Really! The twisting and turning of the plain text of scripture that is necessary to defend the abstinence for all side of this issue never ceases to amaze me.[/QB]

russell55:
Can you please show me one other verse that likens leaven to anything good or holy?

If not then you take one verse that I believe that at best is vague. I do not have a corner on the truth and I hope I can learn from you.
"Beware of the leaven of the Pharasee's", is a very strong statement and it bares much force in my mind. Would not leaven being used in 99% of examples as sin and just once as something positive be inconsistent?
I will go back and restudy my position. I will look for your position with an open mind, (I pray).

 

[Brian]

Bart, even if he can't produce one more verse one is enough to re-examine your carved in stone theology. I haven't studied how many times and the meanings of the occurences of leaven in scriptures. I just know that what everthing the Bible says on a subject is what it says. Everything must agree if one scripture is different then you reinterpret your interpretation.

Josh, I does not suprise me that you disagree. In my experince if its not your liberal ideal its leagalism and we are morons to believe what we do.
Is it easy to tell you apart from the sinners and publicans? The issue against Jesus was His interactions with publicans and sinners not that He acted like or looked like them.

 

[Brian]

Bart, I should have read you post better. It sounds, again without through study, that you are right in that most cases of leaven were negative. Still if there is one that isn't negative that doesn't change the meanings of the others it just means that a theology of Leaven always = sin becomes in most scripture Leaven = sin. Please keep us posted with what you find out.

Brian