Liberty! The Christian, wine and cigars?

[HankD]

RE: Christian Liberty

You can't help but to offend someone.
Here is an abbreviated list of Christian Do's and Don'ts practiced by someone somewhere.

Do use the KJV only
Do tithe
Do attend morning and evening Sunday Services
Do attend morning and evening Sabbath Services
Do attend prayer meeting
Do have devotions
Etc, etc, etc

Don't smoke
Don't drink alcohol
Don't watch TV
Don't dance
Don't eat meat
Don't cuss
Don't go to movies
Don't play cards
Don't have long hair (men)
Don't have short hair (women)
Don't wear slacks (women)
Don't teach/speak in church (women)
Don't buy insurance
Don't go to the doctor
Don't borrow money (unless to give to the church)
Don't play the Lotto (unless to give it to the church)
Etc, etc, etc…

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Beloved we can't turn a pig into a sheep by training him to do sheep things.
It must be by an internal process of transformation. Our sanctification.
we cannot/should not force the babes in Christ to eat meat.
They must be weaned from the milk of the word and go on from there as the Spirit leads.

My opinion, of course.

HankD

[ April 19, 2002, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[aiki]

As I said before, I do not consider drinking wine in moderate amounts sin. I think it is foolish, but not sinful.

Read Hebrews 12:1.

God bless.

 

[Scott_Bushey]

okeee dokee Aiki!
Thanks for the clearification!

IN HIM,
Scott

 

[Daniel David]

Scott, I have yet to find a convincing argument for the use of wine. All you have really done is argue with reasons against it.

You have also horribly wrenched Scripture out of context. You use the passage where Jesus says that it isn't what goes into a person that defiles as some sort of justification for drinking alchohol. Are you sure you want to use this passage to defend your position? Was not Jesus speaking of cleanness according to the Law and the real issue of depravity?

Do you believe it is okay to real erotic stories and other similar material? After all, it isn't what goes into the body (in this case the mind) that defiles. It is only that which proceeds out? Logic is not on your side using that passage.

You often refer to wine as a blessing from God. I recognize that those who know hebrew and greek are divided on the issue of using alchohol. You cannot dogmatically prove that it is wine that was the blessing. The fruit of the vine and the product of it was the blessing. Medical research proves that grape juice is very beneficial to one's health. Red wine is beneficial to one's health only because the original product is beneficial.

You use such arguments as the following: does drinking wine indicate that one's relationship with Christ is not the same as one who doesn't partake? In other words, does drinking wine and/or other alchoholic beverages necessarily mean that one's relationship isn't where it should be? That is really an irrelevant point. We both know that once a person is saved, he continually is being made into the image of Christ (the reformed view of sanctification). If a Christian is struggling with a particular sin or is ignorantly in a particular sin, God is conforming other areas of his life.

From a pastoral perspective though, alchohol should not be encouraged. To many marriages are destroyed (it always starts with moderation). To many children go hungry because dad drinks the money for food away. To many women become the object of fury due to Mr. Wonderful only drinking in moderation. I do not speak of any of these things by word of mouth. I have personally witnessed this happening to others. I have never partaken of alchohol and never will.

Paul spoke of those who do not act in accordance with godliness. It isn't enough to "fit" your interpretation in Scripture. You must also check it by godliness. I would like to see a little more emphasis by you on the whole council of God and a little less youthful arrogance in your posts.

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Preachtheword states:
Scott, I have yet to find a convincing argument for the use of wine. All you have really done is argue with reasons against it.

Scott responds:
I have presented a biblical account. It's sound. I have exegeted it properly. It is you who deny that which the scriptures support.

preachtheword writes:
You have also horribly wrenched Scripture out of context.

Scott asks:
Please show me..........

Preachtheword writes:
You have also horribly wrenched Scripture out of context. You use the passage where Jesus says that it isn't what goes into a person that defiles as some sort of justification for drinking alchohol. Are you sure you want to use this passage to defend your position? Was not Jesus speaking of cleanness according to the Law and the real issue of depravity?

Scott responds:
Sorry, the premise is there. See my contrasting verse from the book of Acts (in my previous post).

PTW asks:
Do you believe it is okay to real erotic stories and other similar material?

Scott states:
I wont even answer this question.....sorry!

PTW states:
You often refer to wine as a blessing from God. I recognize that those who know hebrew and greek are divided on the issue of using alchohol. You cannot dogmatically prove that it is wine that was the blessing.

Scott responds:
Don't argue with me, argue with God! It's His bible.
Psa 104:14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;
Psa 104:15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.
Psa 104:16 The trees of the LORD are full of sap; the cedars of Lebanon, which he hath planted;

PTW writes:
Red wine is beneficial to one's health only because the original product is beneficial.

Scott implies:
You are misled my young friend. The benefit of wine has much to do with the alcohol and the nitrates in the wine. The benefit is (based upon many studies...The New England Journal, to name a few) that alcohol helps lower total cholesterol and raise the HDL (good) cholesterol in the process, thus inproving mortality in the cardiac patient.

PTW states:
You use such arguments as the following: does drinking wine indicate that one's relationship with Christ is not the same as one who doesn't partake? In other words, does drinking wine and/or other alchoholic beverages necessarily mean that one's relationship isn't where it should be? That is really an irrelevant point. We both know that once a person is saved, he continually is being made into the image of Christ (the reformed view of sanctification). If a Christian is struggling with a particular sin or is ignorantly in a particular sin, God is conforming other areas of his life.

Scott responds:
Partaking or not partaking does not make or break ones position in Christ. Drunkeness, yes, but partaking, no!

PTW writes:
From a pastoral perspective though, alchohol should not be encouraged.

Scott responds;
My pastor told me it is fine! He didn't discourage me.

PTW writes:
Paul spoke of those who do not act in accordance with godliness. It isn't enough to "fit" your interpretation in Scripture. You must also check it by godliness.

Scott states again:
I am not acting in accordance with Godliness? Please show me the error of my ways?
Partaking or not partaking is irrelevent.

PTW ends with:
I would like to see a little more emphasis by you on the whole council of God and a little less youthful arrogance in your posts.

Scott adds:
I have a glass of wine every couple weeks. I love black Dominican cigars. This is an illicit habit? Are you familiar with Calvin, Luther and a gentlemen named Spurgeon? I think God does not judge me on these blessings.
You have to resort to ad hominem to support your position! Your citation that I exhibit "youthful" arrogance and do not use the whole council of God is unkind and unwarranted. My whole premise is based upon and supported by the whole council Of God and the scriptures. That is how I have come to my conclusion.
Oh and by the way, I will bet that you are 20 years my junior.

In HIM,
Scott

[ April 21, 2002, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

[Bartimaeus]

Soo Many References in the Scripture that wine and strong drink are runnin' buddies. The fact that John the Baptist was "mighty in the Lord" and drank neither wine nor strong drink and yet he said of Christ, "of whose shoelachet I am unworthy to loose" is significant. I do not believe the Lord Jesus drank alcohol. I know you will answer this as a point that is not correctly addressing the issue, but it is close enough for me. I hope your "take a little wine for thy stomach's sake", never goes so far as to attack your liver. I won't go into to my experience, but suffice it to say that I have seen the death and mayhem of the Alcoholic Industy in my personal life and in the life of others (14 yrs law enforcement) and the negatives far, far, far outweigh any positives. For every heart that you say is helped with a little sip each day there are hundreds, upon hundreds that are in living wretchedness. I will never stand in the pulpit and say it's ok.

First you say your sippin', then you say your smokin', now you've gone to bettin'. (just kidding)

Oh yeah, I've got a verse for those smokers out there, "by now he stinketh"!

 

[HankD]

Dear Bart,

OK, so according to your point of view, the next time you go to the dentist for an extraction or a filling will you let him know that you don't want any novacain (an extract of cocaine) because it "causes more harm than good"?

Or when it comes time to go under the surgeon's knife will you refuse anesthesia because morphine and its derivatives cause more harm than good to society?

>> For every heart that you say is helped with a little sip each day there are hundreds, upon hundreds that are in living wretchedness. >>

Perhaps your point of view is skewed by your many years in law enforcement. I come from an Italian background and a community where wine is used daily and not abused by the majority.

HankD

[ April 28, 2002, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]