Lies About John Calvin Refuted

[Rippon]

From Courtenay Studies In Reformation Theology :John Calvin. The following is from the first chapter by Basil Hall called The Calvin Legend.

Here are some of Basil Hall's thoughts in the second chapter:

"Calvin is unjustly treated if he is thought of as a dominating personality wilfully imposing his arbitarily defined views on those who were compelled to listen to them. His works show a remarkably self-effacing quality...which is especially shown in the rarity of his references to himself and his own experiences;always he points from himself to Scripture,to Christ,to the church. It would be unjust to understand his theology as a system in the old scholastic sense, for Calvin would have regarded system-making as an all too human intellectual arrogance. Yet so fresh and profound were his theological insights,given with the lucid precision evident in all his writings,that the major themes of his thought, and the way they were articulated,must for want of a descriptive term be called 'Calvinism'." (pgs.20,21)

 

[Rippon]

From Courtenay Studies In Reformation Theology : John Calvin.

This is from the fourth chapter :Calvin the Letter-Writer. It was written by Jean-Daniel Benoit.

"It cannot be denied that Calvin's vocation was one thrust upon him from above. It had not sprung up spontaneously from the depths of his being,but rather he had to be taken by force. he was only a pastor by constraint and in spite of himself,and that twice over. First Farel had made him stay in Geneva;and then, driven out of Geneva,Bucer had summoned him to Strasbourg. He would much rather have pursued his studies in some quiet corner,but in the thundering entreaties of Farel as in the urgent pleas of Bucer,who reminded him of the example of Jonah, he believed that he could discern the very voice of God. He thus accepted 'the teaching charge',that is the pastoral ministry. From then on he was a pastor, and having put his hand to the plough, he never looked back." (p.83)

Chapter eight,Calvin the Theologian, was authored by J.I.Packer.

"...Calvin held that in the Gospel Christ is offered to all,and spent his whole life seeking to spread the Gospel throughout Europe by praying,writing,advising,and training leaders...The popualr idea of him is still of a chilly,arrogant intellectualist --though in fact no Reformation leader was more consistently practical in his teaching,or more humble and adoring in his thoughts of God. Yet all serious Calvin-scholars now know that the Calvin of legend --the slobbering ogre,the egoistical fanatic,the doctrinaire misanthrope,the inhuman dictator with a devilish god --is a figure of fancy,not of fact. The real Calvin was not like that,nor was his theology the monstrous and mis-shapen thing that the legendary image would suggest." (p.150)

 

[Rippon]

From Courtenay Studies In Reformation Theology :John Calvin.

More from J.I. Packer's chapter.

"His consistency is remarkable. All that he wrote was homogeneous. He never changed his mind on any doctrinal issue...all his opinions remained identical...his outlook was fully formed before his literary career began, and though as time went on he was able to magnify and augment he never needed to correct or retract...Thus, any statement of view in any of Calvin's writings,early or late, may be taken as integral to his thought throughout...Calvin's theology,first to last,was a great tapestry of biblical strands of thought,masterfully woven,and all of a piece." (p.152)

 

[saturneptune]

From Courtenay Studies In Reformation Theology :John Calvin.

More from J.I. Packer's chapter.

"His consistency is remarkable. All that he wrote was homogeneous. He never changed his mind on any doctrinal issue...all his opinions remained identical...his outlook was fully formed before his literary career began, and though as time went on he was able to magnify and augment he never needed to correct or retract...Thus, any statement of view in any of Calvin's writings,early or late, may be taken as integral to his thought throughout...Calvin's theology,first to last,was a great tapestry of biblical strands of thought,masterfully woven,and all of a piece." (p.152)

I will agree with you on this point. Calvin was consistent. I am not here for the purpose of saying exactly the opposite of what you say.

 

[Rippon]

From Courtenay Studies In Reformation Theology :John Calvin.

More from J.I. Packer's chapter.

"His consistency is remarkable. All that he wrote was homogeneous. He never changed his mind on any doctrinal issue...all his opinions remained identical...his outlook was fully formed before his literary career began, and though as time went on he was able to magnify and augment he never needed to correct or retract...Thus, any statement of view in any of Calvin's writings,early or late, may be taken as integral to his thought throughout...Calvin's theology,first to last,was a great tapestry of biblical strands of thought,masterfully woven,and all of a piece." (p.152)

More from Packer's chapter:

"He lived as he preached and wrote,for the glory of God. Good theologians are not always good men, nor vice versa, but Calvin's life and theology were all of a piece. Consistency was his hallmark, both as a thinker and as a man." (p.173)

 

[Rippon]

From Bruce Gordon's book on Calvin:

"In the biblical commentaries Augustine and Chrysostom not infrequently are declared to be dead wrong. Nevertheless, for Calvin, as for the other Protestant reformers, the church fathers were so highly regarded that they were constantly quoted and referenced." (p.107)

His "relations" to other Reformers:

"Farel was a loveable, if frustrating, uncle; Bullinger was the close cousin; Melanchthon the good schoolfriend; Beza the son. Bucer was truly the father figure." (p.89)

And I might add that Pierre Viret (1511-1571) was like a brother to Calvin.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

145 Posts to date 7/6/13 on this subject matter. Incredible.

One wonders what type of dialog you each would have on Martin Luther & his legacy to Christianity.

Why dont you both try to rein in your obsessions & act like two Christian Brothers (for a change).

 

[Rippon]

Why dont you both try to rein in your obsessions & act like two Christian Brothers (for a change).

Ah, maybe you aren't paying much attention?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ah, maybe you aren't paying much attention?

Thats nice...did you guys kiss & makeup? :love2:

 

[saturneptune]

Thats nice...did you guys kiss & makeup? :love2:

Rippon is correct on this one. I have not responded to a thread attacking Calvin in weeks. To answer your quote, here is a picture. Guess which one I am.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Rippon is correct on this one. I have not responded to a thread attacking Calvin in weeks. To answer your quote, here is a picture. Guess which one I am.

Suddenly feel like I could use a Margaretta (or two)

 

[Rippon]

Calvin,by Francois Wendel --translated by Philip Mairet. Some snips follow.

"Thus there was no question,as is so commonly supposed,of a theocratic regime in which the temporal power would be subject to the spiritual power. Calvin not only never succeeded in putting the Genevan Magistracy under the tutelage of the Church;he never even in theory announced the need for such a tutelage,which is precisely what characterizes a genuinely theocratic system." (p.309)

"In September 1548 there came to the knowledge of the public a letter which Calvin had written to Viret three years before,critizing the attitude of the Magistracy in no uncertain terms. Calvin was summoned and required to justify himself: the situation was such that at one moment he thought he would have to leave Geneva. But the Council did no more than call upon him 'to do his duty better another time.' " (p.89)

 

[Rippon]

Continuing Quotes From Wendel's Book.

"Servetus,by his own attitude especially in the course of his disputes with Calvin,seemed purposely to stir up the animosity of his accusers,as though for pleasure. If we can believe the official report, his behaviour was in the last degree arrogant and unmannerely." (p.96)

"...Servetus suffered the fate that hundreds of heretics and anabaptists suffered at the hands of Protestant authorities of all shades of opinion,as well as of Catholic authorities;and secondly,that it is contrary to a sound conception of history to try to apply our ways of judging and our moral criteria to the past. Calvin was convinced, and all the reformers shared this conviction,that it was the duty of a Christian magistrate to put to death blasphemers who kill the soul,just as they punished murderers who kill the body." (p.97)

 

[Rippon]

From McGrath's book :A Life of John Calvin.

"Calvin was thus denied access to the city's decision-making machinery. He could not vote;he could not stand for office...His influence over Geneva was exercised indirectly,through preaching,consultation and other forms of legitimate suasion.Despite his ability to influence through his moral authority,he had no civic jurisdiction,no right,to coerce others to act as he wished. Calvin would and did urge,cajole and plead;he could not,however,command.
The image of Calvin as the 'dictator of Geneva' bears no relation to the known facts of history...The city council had no intention of surrendering its hard-won rights and privileges to anyone,let alone one of its employees --a foreighner devoid of voting rights,whom they could dismiss and expel from the city as they pleased...Throughout,the city council retained its authority in civic matters. That Calvin's authority in civic matters was purely personal and moral in character was demonstrated by the difficulties his successors faced after his death." (page 109)

Time for a refresher course for some here who want to go down the same path as a recently banned member.

Facts get in the way of convenient theories as J.C.Ryle substantially said.

 

[Rippon]

"Committed under Calvin"? No, Calvin didn't have the authority to arrest,torture or execute anybody. Those were decisions of the Council and of the Council of 200. Calvin or the church consistory did not have the civil power to do what you and others constantly claim.

The Great Christian Revolution by Otto Scott says :"Calvin never ruled Geneva. The city was not a totalitarian society,but a Republic,with elections and dissent. Calvin held no civil office,could neither arrest nor punish any citizen,appoint or dismiss any official. To argue that his eloquence and logic constituted tyranny is to invent a new standard." (p.57)

Take note and comprehend.

 

[Rippon]

A Life of John Calvin by Alister E. McGrath :"The rigid restrictions on voting rights in sixteenth-century Geneva reflected widespread anxieties within the city over the possible influence of foreigners upon its affairs. By restricting citizenship,with its full rights to vote and hold office,to certain native-born residents,the council had effectively forestalled the ambitions of any foreigner to exercise political influence within the city.

Calvin was thus denied access to the city's decision-making machinery. He could not vote;he could not stand for public office. From 1541-1559,his status within the city was that of habitant...His influence over Geneva was exercised indirectly,through preaching,consultation and other forms of legitimate suasion. Despite his ability to influence through his moral authority,he had no civic jurisdiction,no right,to coerce others to act as he wished. Calvin could and did urge,cajole and plead;he could not,however,command." (109)

Are you beginning to understand?

 

[Revmitchell]

Time for a refresher course for some here who want to go down the same path as a recently banned member.

Facts get in the way of convenient theories as J.C.Ryle substantially said.

He wasn't banned because of this dead thread you chose to revive. Talk about obsessed.

 

[Rippon]

And for all this talk of Calvin being a dictator,monster etc...why did Europeans flock there? Because it was considered a safe haven from religious persecution by Protestant refugees.

In 1550 the population was 13,000 in Geneva. By 1560,it was 21,400 per McGrath's research.

And let me add something else. For centuries Calvin has been linked with Servetus' death. Why,if he is somehow responsible for upwards of nearly a hundred or so more was the Spanish madman's state execution so singular? Why hasn't Calvin been painted as evil for the hundred or so you have given him responsibility for instead of the one?

Yeah, why is that?

 

[Rippon]

"If one accepts the label 'Calvinism' to describe the changes occurring,one must be careful not to ascribe everything to the will of one man.

Geneva,in fact,was never a theocracy. Although they interpenetrated each other more than today,the religious and political powers,the ministry and the magistracy,were never one and the same...To sum up,Calvin did not take over the state;he was neither a commanding general nor an ayatollah. On the contrary,he only wanted to guarantee a minimum of liberty of action to the church." (p.159)

"The consistory therefore could not inflict any penalties;it had only limited doctrinal competence. The double role of permitting or of prosecuting heresy belonged to the Council...It basically possessed only an admonishing role,the lords of the Council being charged with penal prosecutions if needed. (p.166)

'We must avoid the simplistic idea of a religious reformation controlling the civil power to erect a theocratic,indeed fundamentalist state.in fact,it was almost the opposite.' (p.114)

The above is extracted from Bernard Cottret's book --"Calvin:A Biography."

 

[Rippon]

From Alister E.McGrath's book :A Life of John Calvin :

"Post-Enlightenment writers have every right to protest against the cruelty of earlier generations;to single out Calvin for particular criticism,howver,suggests a selectivity approaching victimization. to target him in this way --when the manner of his involvement was,to say the least,oblique --and overlook the much greater claims to infamy of other individuals and institutions raises difficult questions concerning the precommitments of his critics. Servetus was the only individual put to death for his religious opinions in Geneva during Calvin's lifetime,at a time when executions of this nature were a commonplace elsewhere.

Futhermore,the trail,condemnation and execution (including the selection of the particular mode of execution)of Servetus were entirely the work of the city council,at a period in its history when it was particularly hostile to Calvin. The Perrinists had recently gained power,and were determined to weaken his position. Their prosecution of Servetus...was intended to demonstrate their impeccable orthodoxy,as a prelude to undermining Calvin's religious authority within the city.The Consistory...was bypassed altogether by the council in its efforts to marginalize Calvin from the affair."

Are you getting the picture now?