Lies About John Calvin Refuted

[Rippon]

Yes....we all surrender.

That's the ticket because you still have not proven that "there were numerous reformers and church-men (many who knew Calvin) who spoke strongly against his actions and policies,and he was VERY aware of them."

I want to see names and specifics.Document.

You still have not given any examples that "His former friend Castellio (prior to his murder) and Luther who didn't meet him personally both decried Calvin's actions for example."

Castellio did denounce Calvin,but he died a natural death. Give examples of Luther decrying Calvin's actions. And since the subject is executions and persecutions please furnish those specifics.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Reading these posts is like taking chemo & waiting for the nausia to begin.

You are correct. I said previously that i was going to bow out of this and stuff like it but I always allow myself to get drawn back in. No more.

For those who want to idolize persecutors and murderers, they have a problem, but it's not my problem.

AS SN has rightly said, holding to a theology does not mean that one must affirm murderers and persecutors who also hold to that theology.

 

[Herald]

Keep in mind that King David committed adultery, conspiracy, and murder. He was terrible father and tempted God through a census. Yet he is considered a righteous king and a man after God's own heart.

John Calvin was an influential Reformer who has contributed much good to the Church. He was a redeemed sinner who's most glaring weaknesses are exploited by his enemies in order to achieve a theological victory. Would they invite the same scrutiny over their own misdeeds?

 

[saturneptune]

Keep in mind that King David committed adultery, conspiracy, and murder. He was terrible father and tempted God through a census. Yet he is considered a righteous king and a man after God's own heart.

John Calvin was an influential Reformer who has contributed much good to the Church. He was a redeemed sinner who's most glaring weaknesses are exploited by his enemies in order to achieve a theological victory. Would they invite the same scrutiny over their own misdeeds?

King David humbled himself before the Lord. John Calvin was a self centered, murdering, persecuting, lying slob until the day he died. Since I agree with John Calvin on sovereignty and grace, as do many others on this board, but despise the character of Calvin, then your theory about attacking Calvin to enjoy a theological victory, are proven incorrect.

 

[Herald]

King David humbled himself before the Lord. John Calvin was a self centered, murdering, persecuting, lying slob until the day he died. Since I agree with John Calvin on sovereignty and grace, as do many others on this board, but despise the character of Calvin, then your theory about attacking Calvin to enjoy a theological victory, are proven incorrect.

Did I address anyone by name? If the shoe fits...

 

[saturneptune]

Did I address anyone by name? If the shoe fits...

The shoe fits exactly, and that is exactly what I meant. This is a public debate forum and does not require an address by name. If that is what you desire, use a PM to someone.

I thought the name of the song was "Hark the Herald Angels Sing" not "Hark, Herald is Babbling."

There is a big difference between someone who commits a sin and confesses then humbles themselves before the Lord, and one that continues the same pattern until death. How dare you compare David with Calvin?

 

[Herald]

The shoe fits exactly, and that is exactly what I meant. This is a public debate forum and does not require an address by name. If that is what you desire, use a PM to someone.

I thought the name of the song was "Hark the Herald Angels Sing" not "Hark, Herald is Babbling."

There is a big difference between someone who commits a sin and confesses then humbles themselves before the Lord, and one that continues the same pattern until death. How dare you compare David with Calvin?

Then it does not fit for you, but it does for many in here. I am not as well informed as you. I do not know the inner workings of John Calvin's heart. I do not know whether he repented from each sin he committed in his lifetime. I will defer to your expertise on his life. I do know his biblical exegesis on many subjects has been an invaluable asset to the Church. For that I am grateful.

As for comparing him to David; get over your faux outrage. David was considered a righteous king because God chose him. He elected him. He was redeemed; born from above. Even though he committed great wickedness he was forgiven (although suffered the earthly consequences). If John Calvin was a Christian (and I have no reason to doubt that), he was just as righteous as David. So are you...if the shoe fits.

 

[saturneptune]

Then it does not fit for you, but it does for many in here. I am not as well informed as you. I do not know the inner workings of John Calvin's heart. I do not know whether he repented from each sin he committed in his lifetime. I will defer to your expertise on his life. I do know his biblical exegesis on many subjects has been an invaluable asset to the Church. For that I am grateful.

As for comparing him to David; get over your faux outrage. David was considered a righteous king because God chose him. He elected him. He was redeemed; born from above. Even though he committed great wickedness he was forgiven (although suffered the earthly consequences). If John Calvin was a Christian (and I have no reason to doubt that), he was just as righteous as David. So are you...if the shoe fits.

I told you in another post that the shoe did fit, or do you read before responding? No one here claims expertise. The record speaks for itself. Read it sometime. You show me one shred of evidence from the record that John Calvin had any hint of the fruits of the Holy Spirit in his inner being.

If you are depending on the character of a man that a doctrine was named after to validate a doctrine instead of Scripture and God's Word, then you have many problems. What kind of mindset connects the actions of a flawed human being with God being able to keep Himself sovereign?

God did not assign the name Calvin to His sovereignty and grace. Man did. Had Calvin never been born, we would have done just fine.

It seems to me you are much more concerned about how Calvin lead his life than doing the Lord's work some 500 years later.

 

[Aaron]

Would they invite the same scrutiny over their own misdeeds?

Like it says in my signature . . .

 

[Herald]

I told you in another post that the shoe did fit, or do you read before responding? No one here claims expertise. The record speaks for itself. Read it sometime. You show me one shred of evidence from the record that John Calvin had any hint of the fruits of the Holy Spirit in his inner being.

If you are depending on the character of a man that a doctrine was named after to validate a doctrine instead of Scripture and God's Word, then you have many problems. What kind of mindset connects the actions of a flawed human being with God being able to keep Himself sovereign?

God did not assign the name Calvin to His sovereignty and grace. Man did. Had Calvin never been born, we would have done just fine.

It seems to me you are much more concerned about how Calvin lead his life than doing the Lord's work some 500 years later.

I am content to let your words stand on their merits. No commentary is needed by me.

 

[saturneptune]

I am content to let your words stand on their merits. No commentary is needed by me.

So glad to see you content, and I mean every word of my post. You are correct in your second sentence and Baptist Board appreciates it.

 

[Rippon]

King David humbled himself before the Lord. John Calvin was a self centered, murdering, persecuting, lying slob until the day he died.

The kind of demeaning words you use tells us more about your character than the one to whom you attribute such evil.

 

[Rippon]

The record speaks for itself. Read it sometime.

Your sources are suspect. You have repeatedly said utterly false things about Calvin. You are a one-man demolition team. However your venom will not destroy the good work Calvin did under the Lord.

You show me one shred of evidence from the record that John Calvin had any hint of the fruits of the Holy Spirit in his inner being.

Well look at the real record of his life,not your perverse image.

Did you know that Calvin was known as the theologian of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Rippon]

Following are some quotes by Bernard Cottret author of Calvin :A Biography.

Regarding Servetus: "This Spaniard was completely,abominably heretical;his obstinacy,his nimble mind,and his feelings for a retort never abandoned him." (p.214)

"There was an admirable unanimity among the established churches with regard to defending the fundamental dogmas of Christianity,and among these the Trinity,that God in three persons,equal and distinct,in which servetus,the mocker,saw a Cerberus,the demonic dog with three heads that guarded Hades." (p.222)

Cottret quotes Beza as saying :"There are few towns in Switzerland or Germany where Anabaptists have not been put to death,and rightly;here we have been content with banishment. Here Bolsec blasphemed against the providence of God,here Sebastian Castellio derogated the very books of the holy Scriptures,here Valentin blasphemed against the divine essence. None of these is dead;two wwre only banished,the third got off with formal amends to God and the government. Where is this cruelty? Servetus alone was sent to the fire." (p.207,208)

 

[Rippon]

You are correct in your second sentence and Baptist Board appreciates it.

LOL! As if you,Sat/Nep, are claiming to speak on behalf of the BB when so many of your posts have been censored. I get a kick out of your unintended humor at times.

 

[Revmitchell]

Your sources are suspect. it?

And just why are they suspect?

 

[DrJamesAch]

And just why are they suspect?

I Just love his quote of Beza's defense, "Where is this cruelty? Servetus alone was sent to the fire."

 

[Rippon]

Calvin's Geneva Was Not A Theocracy

Following are some quotes by Bernard Cottret author of Calvin :A Biography.

"If one accepts the label 'Calvinism' to describe the changes occurring,one must be careful not to ascribe everything to the will of one man.

Geneva,in fact,was never a theocracy. Although they interpenetrated each other more than today,the religios and political powers,the ministry and the magistracy,were never one and the same...To sum up,Calvin did not take over the state;he was neither a commanding general nor an ayatollah. On the contrary,he only wanted to guarantee a minimimum of liberty of action to the church." (p.159)

"The consistory therefore could not inflict any penalties;it had only limited doctrinal competence. The double role of permitting or of prosecuting heresy belonged to the Council...It basically possessed only an admonishing role,the lords of the Council being charged with penal prosecutions if needed. (p.166)

'We must avoid the simplistic idea of a religious reformation controlling the civil power to erect a theocratic,indeed fundamentalist state.in fact,it was almost the opposite.' (p.114)

 

[Rippon]

Following are some quotes by Bernard Cottret author of Calvin :A Biography.

Regarding Servetus: "This Spaniard was completely,abominably heretical;his obstinacy,his nimble mind,and his feelings for a retort never abandoned him." (p.214)

In another fine book with the title The Man God Mastered by Jean Cadier(1965) he quotes Bolsec who tried to defame Calvin,but fell flat. Here is Bolsec per Cadier speaking of Servetus:"I do not write these things out of pleasure for the death of such a monstrous heretic,for he was evil and unworthy to live amongst men,and I would like all similar men to be exterminated and the church well purged of such vermin." (p.153)

 

[saturneptune]

LOL! As if you,Sat/Nep, are claiming to speak on behalf of the BB when so many of your posts have been censored. I get a kick out of your unintended humor at times.

You are finally understanding.