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Glory-to-God
Guest
Did some research on Saddam sounds a lot like the guy.
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Life experiences and mental disorders?
- Thread starter Joseph_Botwinick
- Start date
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baptistcross
Guest
Glory-To-God. Stop being such [edited for personal attack and name calling]. Now I am willing to let things go but if you continue being a [edited for personal attack, name calling and threatening a poster]. You have been warned. I haven't been here for days and you are already causing trouble.
[ November 22, 2005, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
[ November 22, 2005, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
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Glory-to-God
Guest
What does it take to ban someone on here ? certainly not being mean to people and breaking rules !
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baptistcross
Guest
Glor-To-God. Put a cork in it. Be silent. You have caused enough trouble lately and I'm tired of it. I hear you have been on these boards before causing all sorts of trouble. You are a [edited for personal attack and name calling]. Enough.
[ November 22, 2005, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
[ November 22, 2005, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
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baptistcross
Guest
Glory-To-God. Put a cork in it. You have caused enough problems with your [edited for name calling] mouth. I hear you have been on these boards before causing trouble. Enough. Remain silent.
[ November 22, 2005, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
[ November 22, 2005, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
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Glory-to-God
Guest
A tool just what I thought....sorry won't work.
Well, this is a "bummer". Think we shall shut this down.
Baptist Cross - we will talk. Until then you will not post. This cannot be permitted. Consider this as your last warning if you desire to stay on the BB.
[ November 20, 2005, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]
Baptist Cross - we will talk. Until then you will not post. This cannot be permitted. Consider this as your last warning if you desire to stay on the BB.
[ November 20, 2005, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Dr. Bob,
Thank you for allowing the conversation to continue. I hope the other matter can be resolved in an acceptable manner behind the scenes, and I am confident with you as an administrator, that it will be. And now, back to the original topic of conversation:
Before you claim that this is hereditary, please consider the following statements against that assertion:
Further, to the question of evil or demon possession, I would argue that there may be an element to that as well. A few points, however:
1. Even if we were to concede the point that this man was totally demon possessed and that is what caused him to commit such atrocities, can you state that this means he was in control of his actions, or else, were demons in control of his actions? Was he hearing voices? Were the demons telling him what to do and forcing him to do it? If he had not been demon possessed, would he have acted in the same manner?
2. Is it possible that what we would describe as paranoid schizophrenia in the mental health profession would be the same thing as demon possession in a spiritual context or realm?
3. Would you not agree that anyone who commits murder is at least a little demon possessed? I don't think that is a normal thing that people do, whether it is a mass murderer or someone who just murders one person.
It seems clear to me that this person was delusional and paranoid to the extreme about the world around him, which made him detatched from reality, which is evidence of mental illness on his part. It is also clear to me that much of the reasons he is the way he is stems from his environment in which he was born and raised. He was unloved, unwanted, rejected by those who should have loved him the most at a very young age, brutalized, taught to kill or be killed, tortured, sodomized, and all by the time he was 10 years old. If that doesn't warp a person's mind and cause them to be detatched from reality, I don't know what would. To deny that is to deny the clear truth that small children imitate their role models and intrisically become a product of their environment. Can a person break the chains of their environment? Absolutely. But, their roots and upbringing will always be at least a part of who they are.
All that being said, even if this person did have a mental illness and was not in touch with reality, and had no control over what they did, does this excuse them from being held accountable for their actions? As far as I am concerned: NO. I still think they should be held just as responsible for their actions as anyone else. Anyone who commits murder, in my mind, is not thinking straight, in touch with reality, and not acting in a normal, mentally sane capacity. Otherwise, they would never do such a thing.
Joseph Botwinick
Thank you for allowing the conversation to continue. I hope the other matter can be resolved in an acceptable manner behind the scenes, and I am confident with you as an administrator, that it will be. And now, back to the original topic of conversation:
I think that there is evidence that this person was detatched from the reality of the world that might have caused him to conclude that it was necessary to commit these atrocities. For example, his extreme paranoia of anybody and everybody. He grew up learning the cruel philosophy of homo homini lupus (man is a wolf to man), which is another way of saying trust nobody and kill them before they kill you. This is not a normal way that the brain works. It is so far detatched from reality that it leads one to believe everyone is eventually going to turn against you, and therefore, you should kill them first. This led him to make the following statement in 1979:
With this obvious paranoia in his mind, he went on to murder anyone whom he thought might be plotting against him, even some of his closest friends. Not having had an actual psychological test done on him, still, I do believe that there is some evidence of a detatchment from reality in his words and actions that could suggest Schizophrenia which lists delusions and paranoia as some symptoms. I do think he had to be at least a bit mentally ill to be that detatched from reality that he truly believed he could know who was going to plan to kill him before they even started plotting it. This is not the way a normal person's brain functions. This is not the way a mentally healthy person thinks.
Before you claim that this is hereditary, please consider the following statements against that assertion:
Also consider one of the causes of schizophrenia and think about this man's experience before he was born and just after:
The above quotes were taken from the same link listed above.
Further, to the question of evil or demon possession, I would argue that there may be an element to that as well. A few points, however:
1. Even if we were to concede the point that this man was totally demon possessed and that is what caused him to commit such atrocities, can you state that this means he was in control of his actions, or else, were demons in control of his actions? Was he hearing voices? Were the demons telling him what to do and forcing him to do it? If he had not been demon possessed, would he have acted in the same manner?
2. Is it possible that what we would describe as paranoid schizophrenia in the mental health profession would be the same thing as demon possession in a spiritual context or realm?
3. Would you not agree that anyone who commits murder is at least a little demon possessed? I don't think that is a normal thing that people do, whether it is a mass murderer or someone who just murders one person.
It seems clear to me that this person was delusional and paranoid to the extreme about the world around him, which made him detatched from reality, which is evidence of mental illness on his part. It is also clear to me that much of the reasons he is the way he is stems from his environment in which he was born and raised. He was unloved, unwanted, rejected by those who should have loved him the most at a very young age, brutalized, taught to kill or be killed, tortured, sodomized, and all by the time he was 10 years old. If that doesn't warp a person's mind and cause them to be detatched from reality, I don't know what would. To deny that is to deny the clear truth that small children imitate their role models and intrisically become a product of their environment. Can a person break the chains of their environment? Absolutely. But, their roots and upbringing will always be at least a part of who they are.
All that being said, even if this person did have a mental illness and was not in touch with reality, and had no control over what they did, does this excuse them from being held accountable for their actions? As far as I am concerned: NO. I still think they should be held just as responsible for their actions as anyone else. Anyone who commits murder, in my mind, is not thinking straight, in touch with reality, and not acting in a normal, mentally sane capacity. Otherwise, they would never do such a thing.
Joseph Botwinick
"This is not a normal way that the brain works."-------------------------------------------------
I would say it is the normal state of fallen man. We are just lucky enough to be in a Christian influenced (I used the word influenced out of respect for you Joseph) country. We can thank God we are not like him, because except for the grace of God, there go I. He is hardly unique among third would dictators. I could name 12 right now without taking a breath.
"If that doesn't warp a person's mind and cause them to be detatched from reality, I don't know what would. To deny that is to deny the clear truth that small children imitate their role models and intrisically become a product of their environment. Can a person break the chains of their environment? "---------------------------------------------------------------------------
But there are many stories of folks who were treated just as bad who became saints. You can't treat it like a absolute.
"does this excuse them from being held accountable for their actions?"-----------------------------------------------------------------
No it does not. They should be held accountable, but will that be by execution? Or insainasylem.
As far a Saddam, if there was solid evidence that he was delusional, I think he the Media would have done an expose. But he had a whole group around him. He did not do all this himeslef, so you would have to assume a whole bunch of Scizophrenics just happened to get together and run a country.
"Anyone who commits murder, in my mind, is not thinking straight, in touch with reality, and not acting in a normal, mentally sane capacity. Otherwise, they would never do such a thing."-----------------------------------------------------
They are acting according to there fallen nature. Murder occurred within one generation of the fall. One does not have to be anything but what we all are to commit murder. "But for the grace of God, there go I>"
I would say it is the normal state of fallen man. We are just lucky enough to be in a Christian influenced (I used the word influenced out of respect for you Joseph) country. We can thank God we are not like him, because except for the grace of God, there go I. He is hardly unique among third would dictators. I could name 12 right now without taking a breath.
"If that doesn't warp a person's mind and cause them to be detatched from reality, I don't know what would. To deny that is to deny the clear truth that small children imitate their role models and intrisically become a product of their environment. Can a person break the chains of their environment? "---------------------------------------------------------------------------
But there are many stories of folks who were treated just as bad who became saints. You can't treat it like a absolute.
"does this excuse them from being held accountable for their actions?"-----------------------------------------------------------------
No it does not. They should be held accountable, but will that be by execution? Or insainasylem.
As far a Saddam, if there was solid evidence that he was delusional, I think he the Media would have done an expose. But he had a whole group around him. He did not do all this himeslef, so you would have to assume a whole bunch of Scizophrenics just happened to get together and run a country.
"Anyone who commits murder, in my mind, is not thinking straight, in touch with reality, and not acting in a normal, mentally sane capacity. Otherwise, they would never do such a thing."-----------------------------------------------------
They are acting according to there fallen nature. Murder occurred within one generation of the fall. One does not have to be anything but what we all are to commit murder. "But for the grace of God, there go I>"
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Certainly, our fallen sin nature and totally depraved states causes all manner of sin, including murder. It doesn't mean, however, that all mankind will commit murder and all other sorts of atrocities. There are even those who are not influenced by Christian teaching (and lo, are even influenced by Islamic teaching) who work for peace and live and work for peace in their lives. Let's be careful not to be too absolute in our judgement of sinful man and those who are not influenced by Christian societies. BTW, there are not many societies in the world today where there is not some sort of Christian influence and teaching. The major difference is that Christianity is not actively persecuted in America as it is in other countries.
"If that doesn't warp a person's mind and cause them to be detatched from reality, I don't know what would. To deny that is to deny the clear truth that small children imitate their role models and intrisically become a product of their environment. Can a person break the chains of their environment? "---------------------------------------------------------------------------
But there are many stories of folks who were treated just as bad who became saints. You can't treat it like a absolute.[/QUOTE]
I did not make any absolute judgements in that statement. You left out the answer to my last question:
"Anyone who commits murder, in my mind, is not thinking straight, in touch with reality, and not acting in a normal, mentally sane capacity. Otherwise, they would never do such a thing."-----------------------------------------------------
They are acting according to there fallen nature. Murder occurred within one generation of the fall. One does not have to be anything but what we all are to commit murder. "But for the grace of God, there go I>" [/QUOTE]
1. Not all fallen man commits murder. Remember...there are no absolutes.
2. The grace of God which had me grow up in a loving home while this person was hated, rejected by his own family, and brutalized the first 10 years of his life while living in abject poverty. Yes, certainly, there is a great measure of grace there. On the other hand, there are also those who grow up in equally horrible homes who go on to be peacemakers and do great things. I am not saying conclusively that this person has a mental illness and that is absolutely the reason for his actions. I am saying that evidence of symptoms of mental illness is there, and could have been part of the reason. On the other topic of Andrea Yates, which you mentioned earlier in the thread, I am curious to know if you would make the same arguments about her in her case. Do all women who suffer from post partum depression chase their four children through the house and then hold them under water while they struggle for their lives until they are dead? Is that also a part of the natural fallen state of mankind? How absolute is this situation?
Joseph Botwinick
It can only be judged by the Jury, but from what I know of her case, and from what her husband says, she was out of her mind, hering voices and such. I think there is a possibility that this should be a mitigating factor in her sentence and spare he her the death penelty. But just because she heard the devil tell her to kill her childern or something like that does not mean she could not say no. So I don't know for sure. But in general, I do think there are those cases of murder in which a person would be exempted from the death penelty because of mental illness.
G
Glory-to-God
Guest
I would agree Joseph
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
BTW,
Yes, the person in the story is Saddam Hussein. I will provide my sources of information about his life later. The reason I didn't reveal that at the outset is that he has been villainized by the media around the world (and rightfully so). But, I wanted to see if one would objectively look at the facts of the case from a different perspective and see the same ammount of sympathy for him that they did for Andrea Yates. The difference, as I see it, is that one murderer has been villainized by the media while the other murderer has been sympathized by the media. IMO, both show evidence of possibly being mentally ill and demon possession, but it should excuse neither one for what they did.
Joseph Botwinick
Yes, the person in the story is Saddam Hussein. I will provide my sources of information about his life later. The reason I didn't reveal that at the outset is that he has been villainized by the media around the world (and rightfully so). But, I wanted to see if one would objectively look at the facts of the case from a different perspective and see the same ammount of sympathy for him that they did for Andrea Yates. The difference, as I see it, is that one murderer has been villainized by the media while the other murderer has been sympathized by the media. IMO, both show evidence of possibly being mentally ill and demon possession, but it should excuse neither one for what they did.
Joseph Botwinick
But no one would excuese them as far as I can tell from what has been posted. But you seem to be saying that you would not allow true and extreem mental Illness to be a mitigating factor. It seem you were saying execute anyone who murders. Andrea yates, was able to give the police exact details about her crime as soon as they arrived. This give me pause about her mental status, and would allow me to perhaps seek the death penelty, but it is the juries call. But I do think there are those people who are so mentally ill that they could not be said to have preconcieved their murder. This is an element in all death penilties cases, as it is an element in all 1st degree murders. Without this element the best you can get is 2 degree murder, which does not carry the death penalty in any state, as far as I know.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Something also to consider:
Even folks who are schizophrenic have periods of time when they are relatively normal. then something intrudes upon them and triggers an "episode". For my mother, we never found the trigger. she was cyclic though and her cycle ran on about a 4 year schedule.(others may run on a much faster or slower cycle as this is totally individual)
In between severe episodes where she was totally off the wall and incoherent, she could be perfectly normal(as normal as any other addict). then something would change and she'd start the decline back to paranoia and schizophrenic behaviour. The periods in between she knew right from wrong. During the episodes I don't believe she did.
With Sadaam there is enough evidence I believe, that he was in control of himself when he made murderous decisions. And there were people around him who agreed with him and carried out his orders.
Even folks who are schizophrenic have periods of time when they are relatively normal. then something intrudes upon them and triggers an "episode". For my mother, we never found the trigger. she was cyclic though and her cycle ran on about a 4 year schedule.(others may run on a much faster or slower cycle as this is totally individual)
In between severe episodes where she was totally off the wall and incoherent, she could be perfectly normal(as normal as any other addict). then something would change and she'd start the decline back to paranoia and schizophrenic behaviour. The periods in between she knew right from wrong. During the episodes I don't believe she did.
With Sadaam there is enough evidence I believe, that he was in control of himself when he made murderous decisions. And there were people around him who agreed with him and carried out his orders.
"With Sadaam there is enough evidence I believe, that he was in control of himself when he made murderous decisions. And there were people around him who agreed with him and carried out his orders."----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree, unless a whole cadre of Schizophrinics managed to get together and run a country, they were sane enought to answer for their action. I think by definetion, if one can run a country, one is sane enought to be responsible for his actions.
I agree, unless a whole cadre of Schizophrinics managed to get together and run a country, they were sane enought to answer for their action. I think by definetion, if one can run a country, one is sane enought to be responsible for his actions.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
There is, likewise, evidence that at times he was totally detatched from reality when he murdered others. I am quite sure with anyone who has any mental illness, that there are worse times than others. Even Andrea Yates could not be said that she is constantly under a delusional state. Mental health is not an exact, objective science, and nobody can claim to have all the answers. All I am saying is that there is evidence of mental illness within Saddam and that this illness may have caused him to commit many of the atrocities that he did. I am also stating, further, that anyone who commits murder is mentally ill and still ought to be executed. I don't personally see mental illness as an acceptable excuse to avoid accountability and justice.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
And now for my sources of information about Saddam Hussein:
Wikipedia
World Net Daily
Answers.com
Also, quotes from Saddam Hussein and other information about his childhood taken from the book: Saddam Hussein: A Political Biography written by Efraim Karsh and Inari Rautsi, pp. 1-10, revised edition, 2002.
And now you know....the rest of the story...as Paul Harvey would say....good day.
Joseph Botwinick
Wikipedia
World Net Daily
Answers.com
Also, quotes from Saddam Hussein and other information about his childhood taken from the book: Saddam Hussein: A Political Biography written by Efraim Karsh and Inari Rautsi, pp. 1-10, revised edition, 2002.
And now you know....the rest of the story...as Paul Harvey would say....good day.
Joseph Botwinick