Life experiences and mental disorders?

Dr. Bob,

Thank you for allowing the conversation to continue. I hope the other matter can be resolved in an acceptable manner behind the scenes, and I am confident with you as an administrator, that it will be. And now, back to the original topic of conversation:

I think that there is evidence that this person was detatched from the reality of the world that might have caused him to conclude that it was necessary to commit these atrocities. For example, his extreme paranoia of anybody and everybody. He grew up learning the cruel philosophy of homo homini lupus (man is a wolf to man), which is another way of saying trust nobody and kill them before they kill you. This is not a normal way that the brain works. It is so far detatched from reality that it leads one to believe everyone is eventually going to turn against you, and therefore, you should kill them first. This led him to make the following statement in 1979:

With this obvious paranoia in his mind, he went on to murder anyone whom he thought might be plotting against him, even some of his closest friends. Not having had an actual psychological test done on him, still, I do believe that there is some evidence of a detatchment from reality in his words and actions that could suggest Schizophrenia which lists delusions and paranoia as some symptoms. I do think he had to be at least a bit mentally ill to be that detatched from reality that he truly believed he could know who was going to plan to kill him before they even started plotting it. This is not the way a normal person's brain functions. This is not the way a mentally healthy person thinks.

Before you claim that this is hereditary, please consider the following statements against that assertion:

Also consider one of the causes of schizophrenia and think about this man's experience before he was born and just after:

The above quotes were taken from the same link listed above.

Further, to the question of evil or demon possession, I would argue that there may be an element to that as well. A few points, however:

1. Even if we were to concede the point that this man was totally demon possessed and that is what caused him to commit such atrocities, can you state that this means he was in control of his actions, or else, were demons in control of his actions? Was he hearing voices? Were the demons telling him what to do and forcing him to do it? If he had not been demon possessed, would he have acted in the same manner?

2. Is it possible that what we would describe as paranoid schizophrenia in the mental health profession would be the same thing as demon possession in a spiritual context or realm?

3. Would you not agree that anyone who commits murder is at least a little demon possessed? I don't think that is a normal thing that people do, whether it is a mass murderer or someone who just murders one person.

It seems clear to me that this person was delusional and paranoid to the extreme about the world around him, which made him detatched from reality, which is evidence of mental illness on his part. It is also clear to me that much of the reasons he is the way he is stems from his environment in which he was born and raised. He was unloved, unwanted, rejected by those who should have loved him the most at a very young age, brutalized, taught to kill or be killed, tortured, sodomized, and all by the time he was 10 years old. If that doesn't warp a person's mind and cause them to be detatched from reality, I don't know what would. To deny that is to deny the clear truth that small children imitate their role models and intrisically become a product of their environment. Can a person break the chains of their environment? Absolutely. But, their roots and upbringing will always be at least a part of who they are.

All that being said, even if this person did have a mental illness and was not in touch with reality, and had no control over what they did, does this excuse them from being held accountable for their actions? As far as I am concerned: NO. I still think they should be held just as responsible for their actions as anyone else. Anyone who commits murder, in my mind, is not thinking straight, in touch with reality, and not acting in a normal, mentally sane capacity. Otherwise, they would never do such a thing.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Certainly, our fallen sin nature and totally depraved states causes all manner of sin, including murder. It doesn't mean, however, that all mankind will commit murder and all other sorts of atrocities. There are even those who are not influenced by Christian teaching (and lo, are even influenced by Islamic teaching) who work for peace and live and work for peace in their lives. Let's be careful not to be too absolute in our judgement of sinful man and those who are not influenced by Christian societies. BTW, there are not many societies in the world today where there is not some sort of Christian influence and teaching. The major difference is that Christianity is not actively persecuted in America as it is in other countries.

"If that doesn't warp a person's mind and cause them to be detatched from reality, I don't know what would. To deny that is to deny the clear truth that small children imitate their role models and intrisically become a product of their environment. Can a person break the chains of their environment? "---------------------------------------------------------------------------

But there are many stories of folks who were treated just as bad who became saints. You can't treat it like a absolute.[/QUOTE]

I did not make any absolute judgements in that statement. You left out the answer to my last question:

"Anyone who commits murder, in my mind, is not thinking straight, in touch with reality, and not acting in a normal, mentally sane capacity. Otherwise, they would never do such a thing."-----------------------------------------------------

They are acting according to there fallen nature. Murder occurred within one generation of the fall. One does not have to be anything but what we all are to commit murder. "But for the grace of God, there go I>" [/QUOTE]

1. Not all fallen man commits murder. Remember...there are no absolutes.
2. The grace of God which had me grow up in a loving home while this person was hated, rejected by his own family, and brutalized the first 10 years of his life while living in abject poverty. Yes, certainly, there is a great measure of grace there. On the other hand, there are also those who grow up in equally horrible homes who go on to be peacemakers and do great things. I am not saying conclusively that this person has a mental illness and that is absolutely the reason for his actions. I am saying that evidence of symptoms of mental illness is there, and could have been part of the reason. On the other topic of Andrea Yates, which you mentioned earlier in the thread, I am curious to know if you would make the same arguments about her in her case. Do all women who suffer from post partum depression chase their four children through the house and then hold them under water while they struggle for their lives until they are dead? Is that also a part of the natural fallen state of mankind? How absolute is this situation?

Joseph Botwinick

 

BTW,

Yes, the person in the story is Saddam Hussein. I will provide my sources of information about his life later. The reason I didn't reveal that at the outset is that he has been villainized by the media around the world (and rightfully so). But, I wanted to see if one would objectively look at the facts of the case from a different perspective and see the same ammount of sympathy for him that they did for Andrea Yates. The difference, as I see it, is that one murderer has been villainized by the media while the other murderer has been sympathized by the media. IMO, both show evidence of possibly being mentally ill and demon possession, but it should excuse neither one for what they did.

Joseph Botwinick

 

There is, likewise, evidence that at times he was totally detatched from reality when he murdered others. I am quite sure with anyone who has any mental illness, that there are worse times than others. Even Andrea Yates could not be said that she is constantly under a delusional state. Mental health is not an exact, objective science, and nobody can claim to have all the answers. All I am saying is that there is evidence of mental illness within Saddam and that this illness may have caused him to commit many of the atrocities that he did. I am also stating, further, that anyone who commits murder is mentally ill and still ought to be executed. I don't personally see mental illness as an acceptable excuse to avoid accountability and justice.

Joseph Botwinick

 

And now for my sources of information about Saddam Hussein:

Wikipedia

World Net Daily

Answers.com

Also, quotes from Saddam Hussein and other information about his childhood taken from the book: Saddam Hussein: A Political Biography written by Efraim Karsh and Inari Rautsi, pp. 1-10, revised edition, 2002.

And now you know....the rest of the story...as Paul Harvey would say....good day.

Joseph Botwinick