Life experiences and mental disorders?

[Glory-to-God]

Isn't the whole idea of the death penatly is to " protect " society ? Even if they are mentally ill or demon possesed....keeping them from doing it again would be the main focus. I don't care what the excuse...I want my family protected from these kinds of people. If God wants them saved he will save them before they die....if he doesn't their destiny isn't changed they will just go sooner thats all.

 

[Bunyon]

The law is that you can only give the death penelty in certain situations. The main element is it has to be 1st degree murder which requirs that the prosecution prove that the murders was premeditated. If it is an act of passion, you can't even execute a sane person. I am ok if the jury determines that something was not premeditated by vertue of the fact that they were not in there right mind at the time. Even thought many folks try to cop a plea of insanity, when they are in fact sane, that is to be expected.

 

[Glory-to-God]

What does being in " their right mind " have to do with anything ? Like Joseph said anyone who would kill without self defense " isn't in their right mind to begin with " !

That exactly the person I don't want loose.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
The law is that you can only give the death penelty in certain situations. The main element is it has to be 1st degree murder which requirs that the prosecution prove that the murders was premeditated. If it is an act of passion, you can't even execute a sane person. I am ok if the jury determines that something was not premeditated by vertue of the fact that they were not in there right mind at the time. Even thought many folks try to cop a plea of insanity, when they are in fact sane, that is to be expected.

Bunyon,

I am well aware of what the liberal soft on crime law is. That is not what is under discussion here. What is under discussion is what we think it should be. This is a debate of ideas which is the first step to reform. And, it is about time we have this discussion.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Bunyon]

"What does being in " their right mind " have to do with anything ? Like Joseph said anyone who would kill without self defense " isn't in their right mind to begin with " !

That exactly the person I don't want loose."------------------------------------------------------

It has a lot to do with it, unless you are just talking about a make believe world, than do whatever you want.

Many people kill who are in their right mind. We are all capable of killing. You seem to be saying that only folks who have gone off the deep end ever murder anyone. That is a dangerous assumption, and unbiblical. Have you ever hated, you are a murderer. As long as we are making pretend and talking about a pretend fantasy world, I would like to see convicted pedophiles put to death.

You keep talking about people being held accontable. No one has advocated not holding anyone accountable. We just think the rubber stamp of execution may not always be the right thing.

But Joseph, you surely can't be saying that if a profondly retarted person, got access to a gun, and shot the neighbor kid, he should be put to death period. Or if he decided to do the neck drop he saw on WWF, and killed someone, that he should be executed?

Joseph, I thought we were talking about the merits of executing mentally ill folks who commit murder while in a delusional state. If I would have known we were just fanasizing about how we wish things were, I would have not wasted my time. Carry on.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

The question would then be whether or not he understood what he was doing. I think there is a difference between manslaughter (oops...I made a mistake) and murder (I stuck a gun to your head and pulled the trigger or chased my four kids through out the house and then held their heads under water until they were dead). Certainly, you understand the difference, don't you?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Marco]

I don't believe Saddam is mentally ill. I believe he is an intelligent man who was a skilled dictator. I don't know if Saddam is guilty of mass murder. I'll let his trial decide his fate. I do believe he harbors some sort of responsibility concerning his treatment of the Shiites in the country. Ironically, America didn't mind him during the 80's. The neighboring country of Iran was a big concern to the USA and in fact at times embraced Saddam.
The deal with Saddam was that he never was a Muslim. He acted in a manner that would void him of that title. He simply was a dictator.
There have been a lot of childhood stories told in the middle east about Saddam and I'm not sure I would rely on one that involved American Propaganda or media. The only good thing while Saddam was around is the fact Christians and others could practice their religion freely in Iraq. Today, not so.

Anyway, interesting stuff Joseph.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Marco,

1. Efraim Karsh and Inari Rautsi are hardly part of American Propaganda or media. At least get your facts straight before you make accusations.

2. Your last accusation is only true if you were a member of a state sponsered Church. http://assyrianchristians.com/i_was_wrong_mar_26_03.htm

3. Finally, the rightness or wrongness of the American war in Iraq is not part of the topic in this thread, and is therefore, inappropriate for discussion here. If you would like to discuss this issue, please allow me to invite you to start another thread or join one of the many threads on this issue in the politics forum.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Bunyon]

Yates is a question mark. I'll have to let the Jury decide it. Like I said, she gave a detailed account of what she did. Yet she had a history of severe mental illness prior to the crime. The question is was she delusional at the time of the murder? I think that is debateable, but the fact that her husband is behind her says he thinks she was delusional. But there are those cases of mental illness where we can be sure the person was not aware of what they were doing, and this may lead to a different approach than execution. Beceause thay may not know what they are doing. But such a person would not be able to lead a country in any way, so I would not see Sadam as falling into that category.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Madmen have led countries throughout history. You never know what you will get in a tyranical dictatorship.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Marco]

Efraim Karsh and Inari Rautsi may be Muslim but a name does not make them authoritative. Those two men in particular used Western and Israeli sources to contribute to his biography. I don't want to fight with you so I will apologize if I made any 'accusations'.
There are many books written about Saddam in the Middle East that write a different story about Saddam.
I have two cousins and a nephew in Iraq. I have lived in Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon. I can tell you with certainty that Christans in general could practice there faith in Iraq. The Baath Party wanted a secular state like Turkey. Secularism had been in Iraq for many years. Peace Joseph.

 

[menageriekeeper]

But Joseph, understanding is what this whole discussion is all about.

Some people who are mentally ill simply do not understand what they are doing. Others most certainly DO understand what they are doing. And then there are those cases where it is hard to tell the difference.

There is enough evidence to question whether Yates understood what she was doing and what she was doing was wrong. Eventually, she was medicated well enough to bring her mental disease under control enough to figure it out. Her is a case where mercy might be the better course than execution.

Saddaam on the other hand hasn't tried to defend himself with claims of mental illness. Therefore we must assume that he was in full control of his facualties and knew exactly what he was doing and that it was wrong. (No, "ooops! you didn't tell me that gas was posionous to people!" ) Not only that, but the people in his command haven't said they thought he was ill and they willingly followed his orders. They can't all be crazy! Someone could have defected to the US and said that schizophrenics were running the country, but no one did. Saddam and his men all deserve what they get.(I'm hoping for hanging myself)

I don't believe that everyone who murders is mentally ill. Some are just plain mean. Some just have no sense(think drunk drivers). Some kill in the heat of the moment(think the spouse who kills when confronted with his/her beloved's infidelity). Some don't realize what they are doing is dangerous(mentally retarded playing with the gun). Some are greedy(killing for the insurance). And just a few are so incapcitated by mental disease that not only do they not realize WHAT they are doing but don't realize that what they are doing is wrong. The last kind of murderer is one who accidently kills another(but is not metally retarded)

Under the laws of our country the insurance killer and the one who was just mean would be the only ones considered for capital punishment. The reason is premeditation. The others would be tossed in jail for varying lengths of time.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

They are not American either. It sounds like your main objection is that they used American and Israeli sources. Surely, you don't hold to the age old hatred of Muslims toward the west, do you, being a former Muslim if I remember your bio correctly? It should also be noted that those are not the only sources that were used...so let's be fair in our characterizations of the information.

There are others in Iraq who tell a totally different story than you present, so the point is at best debatable how Christians were treated under Saddam.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by menageriekeeper:
But Joseph, understanding is what this whole discussion is all about.

Some people who are mentally ill simply do not understand what they are doing. Others most certainly DO understand what they are doing. And then there are those cases where it is hard to tell the difference.

There is enough evidence to question whether Yates understood what she was doing and what she was doing was wrong. Eventually, she was medicated well enough to bring her mental disease under control enough to figure it out. Her is a case where mercy might be the better course than execution.

Saddaam on the other hand hasn't tried to defend himself with claims of mental illness. Therefore we must assume that he was in full control of his facualties and knew exactly what he was doing and that it was wrong. (No, "ooops! you didn't tell me that gas was posionous to people!" ) Not only that, but the people in his command haven't said they thought he was ill and they willingly followed his orders. They can't all be crazy! Someone could have defected to the US and said that schizophrenics were running the country, but no one did. Saddam and his men all deserve what they get.(I'm hoping for hanging myself)

I don't believe that everyone who murders is mentally ill. Some are just plain mean. Some just have no sense(think drunk drivers). Some kill in the heat of the moment(think the spouse who kills when confronted with his/her beloved's infidelity). Some don't realize what they are doing is dangerous(mentally retarded playing with the gun). Some are greedy(killing for the insurance). And just a few are so incapcitated by mental disease that not only do they not realize WHAT they are doing but don't realize that what they are doing is wrong. The last kind of murderer is one who accidently kills another(but is not metally retarded)

Under the laws of our country the insurance killer and the one who was just mean would be the only ones considered for capital punishment. The reason is premeditation. The others would be tossed in jail for varying lengths of time.

1. Saddam has not presented his case yet...and is still under the delusion that he is currently still the President of Iraq. Talk about delusional.

2. Yes...I do believe it is very much so possible that everyone of his advisors and co-leaders are mentally ill if they participated or knew about the murders. Sane people don't do things like that. It is also possible that some (very few probably) did not know the extent of the horror that was being perpetrated.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Marco]

Sorry Joseph.

No, I don't hold ill will toward the West being a former Muslim. However, there are many myths presented by the West and others when the issue is Muslims. I'm saying, I don't know if we know the man Saddam. For example, the gang rape by homosexuals story is unbelievable. You would have to understand the culture and religion to realize how unlikely this is. I have seen a Homosexual Muslim thrown off a cliff...a band of them...I've never heard of that, never mind the incredible homophobia that exists in the Middle East. A 'band of gays' wouldn't last a second. It sounds like a story that would try to humiliate Saddam, as gays are detested. Who exactly would admit this happened? Saddam...the homo's? It's something vile in Islam and in the Middle East by the masses. One is executed for such behavior. Very unbelievable.

It certainly is debatable how Christians were treated in Iraq, since it was a dictatorship.

I'm sorry if I caused you any problems.

[ November 20, 2005, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: Marco ]

 

[Elnora]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:


2. Yes...I do believe it is very much so possible that everyone of his advisors and co-leaders are mentally ill if they participated or knew about the murders. Sane people don't do things like that. It is also possible that some (very few probably) did not know the extent of the horror that was being perpetrated.

Joseph Botwinick

What about Hitler? All the people that followed him, I don't understand how a group of mentally ill people could orchestrate all that. Isn't it more likely that an evil leader endorsing that behavior just may have encouraged evil doers to follow? Giving them credibility in their own eyes to do what was in their heart to do?

 

[Elnora]

I noticed Andrea Yates was mentioned also.There are many more mentally ill people that don't murder. I believe although she was influenced by her life circumstances, she could not have murdered her children like that unless she was evil.