jsn9333 said:
No, that is not what I'm saying.
What I am saying is that, assuming for the sake of argument that the Hebrew word often translated "pregnant" or "conception" ("harah") means "when sperm implants into egg", then verses people in this thread have relied on to show life starts at hara are verses that say things like, "the woman harah and a child was born," as well as verses like, "God knew me when I was harah."
My point is that, even assuming "harah" means "when sperm implants into egg", those verses still don't say life starts at harah. For the Scriptures refer to sexual intimacy (lying with) as a pre-cursors to life in the same sense those verses do. One verse says two people lie together (had sex) and a child was born to them. Neither the sex act nor the "harah" is said to be the *beginning* of life necessarily. Neither "harah" nor the act of sex before it is ever said to be the beginning of life in those verses.
1. You are splitting hairs.
2. You are wrong in your conclusions.
This is funny coming from you, who on page 12 said to me, "Good for the English language!! . . . I can tell you this, Paul didn't speak it; Christ didn't speak it; Abraham didn't speak it. So to speak of the "English word for conception" is totally irrelevant . . ."
Now all the sudden it is relevant again? Let me know when you make up your mind.
The fact is, the English word conception, according to various English dictionaries, can refer to either the sperm implanting in the egg or the egg implanting in the uterus. We have already shown this by citing several authoritative dictionaries. There is no need to re-hash this information.
You are right. No need to re-hash.
I have made a number of points (previously) with you. You don't seem to get it.
1. We don't speak the "common" language of medical journals; but we do speak the common English language, thus I gave you the common definition of the word "conception", not some obscure definition that you want to force upon us from some obscure source. You are wrong in your definition just because you can find it in some medical source. What you gave is
not the common definition of conception. What I gave you is.
2. I gave you a technical and medical definition (as an example) of something that no doubt you never heard before, and couldn't understand. Remember (Sheehan's syndrome). Can you define it for me? No. Did you understand the definition I gave you? No. Even in the English language we don't understand medical language. So why try to force it upon us. We use common English.
3. In the time of Christ they did not speak classical Greek. They spoke "Koine Greek." That phrase means "common Greek," or the Greek of the common people.
4. To have sex, to "know", to "lay with," all resulted in the same thing. It resulted in a sperm entering an egg, and in the context of the passages given it happened the same night, the same time, that those passages were used, not seven weeks later. You are splitting hairs. Thus conception started at that point, and they knew it. Even a teen-ager today, when she becomes pregnant out of wed-lock can point to the exact day when the sperm entered the egg. Why do you split hairs? The teen-ager may not have been to high school and may not have had biology either, but she knows. Why do you continue to split hairs? We all know when conception started. Ask a single unwed mother, a very young and uneducated one, at that. She knows.
We've also shown that no language had a word for the female ovum before the 17th century, so before then the "sperm implants in egg" definition did not even exist.
False. Your opinion and nothing else. I don't rely on your research. What you have stated is a universal negative, a logical fallacy that cannot be proved.
"No language had a word for the female ovum before the 17th century."
Those are your exact words. It is a logical fallacy--a universal negative--a statement that cannot be proved.
How do you know this? How can it be proved? Have you searched in every language of the world prior to the 17th century that ever existed, and diligently to see if this statement is true. Did you look in the Maori language, the Itala, the Cree, Pharsi, Punjabi, Baluchi, Afghani, etc. Have you searched in every language of the world for the word "female ovum"? Can you demonstrate that your statement is true? The obvious answer is no. Your statement cannot be proved. It is illogical, a logical fallacy known as a universal negative.
Furthermore, there is no evidence the Hebrew word "harah" (translated into 'conception' or 'pregnancy') meant "sperm implants in the egg" any more then it meant "sperm surrounds egg", or "egg implants in uterus"... or "embryo became a fetus", etc. You do not know, nor can you prove, exactly what the Hebrew word for harah means. All you can say is that the closest English words translators have found are "pregnancy" and "conception". Both of those words have various meanings in English... and what's more, the English translation is not what the Hebrews meant, it is just the closest word we have in our language. "Harah" means "became pregnant" or "conceived pregnancy" to the Hebrews, whatever they meant by those phrases...
According to you they have various meanings in English. Not according to common dictionaries. That has been aptly demonstrated. According to Greek scholars (which you have conveniently ignored), the word means fertilization--sperm entering into egg. But you ignored that evidence didn't you?
And even further, "Harah" cannot have meant "when sperm meets egg" the the Hebrew. To say it does mean that is to remain in willful ignorance of the historical fact cited in published historical medical journals
Please quote to me a medical journal that existed in the time of Christ.
and textbooks that no one in mankind knew what an ovum was nor knew it even existed before the 17th century. I know, I know... you "disagree" with all of the published medical history's and journals and think they have no idea what they are talking about. But I'm sorry, your earlier stated logic, "They knew what sperm was, therefore they had to know what an egg was!" just doesn't hold enough weight for me to throw out every history book I've ever seen and believe you instead.
You have already demonstrated in how much you have read on the subject with your woeful ignorance on the history of such prominent historical figures as Columbus. Should I therefore trust your take on the history of medicine. I think not!
All of Eurpope in the middle ages (according to the histories they have passed down to us) knew what sperm was for centuries without knowing what an egg was. I think the Hebrews were capable of knowing what sperm was without knowing what an egg was too. (then there's the additional fact that I've read the Bible and have a Hebrew dictionary and have never seen the word for "ovum" or female egg in any way, shape or form)
"I think" is simply an opinion, and one that I am not considering of much value right now.