Limited Atonement: God's Power to Save

[thomas15]

Either Christ died for the ungodly or he didn't die for the ungodly. It doesn't say some of the ungodly. Christ either died while we were yet sinners or he died while we were not yet sinners, not just some of the yet sinners.

 

[George Antonios]

Limited atonement is the hardest doctrine of Calvinism to accept. For this reason, there are four-point Calvinists:
What is Amyraldism / Four-Point Calvinism? | GotQuestions.org

Everyone limits the atonement in some way. Those who believe in unlimited atonement limit the atonement’s power, that Jesus died for people who end up in hell.

Those who believe in limited atonement limit its extent, that Jesus died only for His elect, who will without fail be saved, so not a drop of Jesus’ blood was wasted.

In His torture and death, Jesus suffered the full measure of God’s wrath for sin. Limited atonement means that not an iota of Jesus’ suffering was endured in vain.



If you truly care about the salvation of the lost, you should support evangelism, since the preaching of the Gospel is the means God has ordained to awaken faith in His elect. Some of the greatest missionaries have been Calvinists.

Until they repent and believe, it's impossible to tell who God's elect might be, so the Gospel must be preached indiscriminately. Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:15, Luke 14:23

Although all 5 points of Calvinism are heretical (The P is not truly about eternal security) and some blaspheme God, yet 5 point Calvinists are right in that the 5 logically stand or fall together.
The T or the L alone give logical birth to the rest. That's how it developed historically.

 

[Van]

Limited atonement is the hardest doctrine of Calvinism to accept. For this reason,

The Calvinist view of Christ not laying down His life as a ransom for all is obviously false doctrine. Christ became the means of salvation for the whole of humanity, 1 John 2:2. He bought those heading for swift destruction, as we as those to be saved, 1 Peter 2:1. Since God desires all people to be saved, His plan provided the opportunity to be saved according to His plan to everyone exposed to the gospel of Christ.

 

[Van]

Christ provides the means of salvation by means of God accepting His sacrifice for all humanity. That does not mean all humanity will be placed into Christ by God, only that anyone whose faith God credits as righteousness will be placed into Christ, thus saved forever. So simple a child could understand it.

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

I would say I have much harder times with Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace rather than Limited Atonement. I think it makes sense that Christ's blood was ultimately shed for His sheep and not for His sheep and the goats. I would say if His blood was truly shed for the goats too then they would all be "paid for" and you arrive at Universalism.

From my Christian experience I am more of a TCLPP (Conditional Election and Prevenient Grace) rather than TULIP. Perhaps I've just experienced too much Free Will haha.

 

[37818]

Question? Is the Lord Jesus only Lord over the saved or Lord over all?
Isaiah 45:23, ". . . I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. . . ."
Romans14:11, ". . . For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. . . ."
Philippians 2:10-11, ". . . That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. . . ."
Romans 14:9, ". . . For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. . . ."

 

[SavedByGrace]

John 3:15-18 says that the teaching of any "limitation" on the Death of Jesus Christ is a heresy. Not a single Calvinist/Reformed person has ever been able to show from this passage, that the Death of Jesus Christ is not for the entire human race. Even John Calvin himself said, that Jesus' Death is for "everyone without exception", on this passage, which is 100% Biblically correct. Neither is there a single verse in the Bible that teaches that Jesus Christ died only for the "elect". The fact that in Luke 22, and the Lord's Supper, Jesus tells the 12 Disciples, including Judas, "This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you" (verse 20), is very clear that Jesus Himself says that His blood was shed for Judas. That Judas actually took the Bread and Wine, that represents the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross, is also acknowledged by John Gill and Matthew Henry, on this passage, both Reformed theologians. In fact, Calvin, commenting on Mark 14:24, "And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many", which is part of the Lord's Supper, says, "Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race; for he contrasts many with one; as if he had said, that he will not be the Redeemer of one man only, but will die in order to deliver many from the condemnation of the curse. It must at the same time be observed, however, that by the words for you, as related by Luke — Christ directly addresses the disciples, and exhorts every believer to apply to his own advantage the shedding of blood Therefore, when we approach to the holy table, let us not only remember in general that the world has been redeemed by the blood of Christ, but let every one consider for himself that his own sins have been expiated".

This is what the Word of God actually teaches, not man-made "theology" that is 100% against the Teachings of God Himself!

 

[Humble Disciple]

Although all 5 points of Calvinism are heretical (The P is not truly about eternal security) and some blaspheme God, yet 5 point Calvinists are right in that the 5 logically stand or fall together.
The T or the L alone give logical birth to the rest. That's how it developed historically.

If you are an Arminian or "provisionist" who loves Jesus, that’s awesome. As the slogan of the Reformation goes, “In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

As far as Calvinism being "heretical," Martin Luther and Augustine must have been heretical too, because they had essentially the same teachings about predestination.

 

[SavedByGrace]

If you are an Arminian who loves Jesus, that’s awesome. As the slogan of the Reformation goes, “In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

who is this directed at?

 

[Humble Disciple]

Question? Is the Lord Jesus only Lord over the saved or Lord over all?
Isaiah 45:23, ". . . I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. . . ."
Romans14:11, ". . . For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. . . ."
Philippians 2:10-11, ". . . That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. . . ."
Romans 14:9, ". . . For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. . . ."

Are you asking me questions to learn about Calvinism or do you already know what a Calvinist's answers to your questions would be?

On the judgment day, every knee shall bow to Jesus Christ and confess that He is Lord, whether they are saved or unsaved. They will have no other choice. That doesn't mean everyone is among God's elect.

I don't have the knowledge or the authority to judge who is elect and who isn't, so I make no discrimination of such when sharing the Gospel to others.

The hearing of the Gospel is the means by which God awakens faith in His elect.

Psalm 115:3
Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases.

 

[Humble Disciple]

I would say I have much harder times with Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace rather than Limited Atonement. I think it makes sense that Christ's blood was ultimately shed for His sheep and not for His sheep and the goats. I would say if His blood was truly shed for the goats too then they would all be "paid for" and you arrive at Universalism.

From my Christian experience I am more of a TCLPP (Conditional Election and Prevenient Grace) rather than TULIP. Perhaps I've just experienced too much Free Will haha.

What about the doctrines of unconditional election and irresistible grace do you find hard to accept? Perhaps we can reason through it, using the scriptures as our guide.

 

[Humble Disciple]

Christ provides the means of salvation by means of God accepting His sacrifice for all humanity. That does not mean all humanity will be placed into Christ by God, only that anyone whose faith God credits as righteousness will be placed into Christ, thus saved forever. So simple a child could understand it.

John 10
15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep

Through the shedding of His blood, Jesus purchased His sheep, the elect. To the non-elect Pharisees, He said "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep."

 

[SavedByGrace]

I would say I have much harder times with Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace rather than Limited Atonement. I think it makes sense that Christ's blood was ultimately shed for His sheep and not for His sheep and the goats. I would say if His blood was truly shed for the goats too then they would all be "paid for" and you arrive at Universalism.

From my Christian experience I am more of a TCLPP (Conditional Election and Prevenient Grace) rather than TULIP. Perhaps I've just experienced too much Free Will haha.

If "limited atonement" is correct, the passages like John 3:15-18, and Luke 22:17-22 is incorrect.

 

[Humble Disciple]

I honestly do not see this distinction being made by the word of God.
And it does not make "an only" limited atonement true. It makes the "general" call which excudes the atoned intentionally in vain.

Outside of this forum, how familiar are you with the Biblical arguments for the five points of Calvinism, and not just from anti-Calvinist sources? I think we might be talking past each other.

 

[Humble Disciple]

John Owen had argued in his denial of the general redemption, "To what purpose serves the general
ransom, but only to assert that Almighty God would have the precious blood of his dear Son poured out for innumerable souls whom he will not have to share in any drop thereof, and so, in respect
of them, to be spilt in vain, or else to be shed for them only that they might be the deeper damned?"
Romans 8:34 comes to mind, ". . . Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, . . ."

If nonbelievers suffer in hell for sins that Christ already paid for on the cross, wouldn't that be double jeopardy?

 

[37818]

Disagreements more often than not are over what the text does not say. Either read into the text or a plain meaning is denied. Terminology can be a problem too. Sometimes translation used.
Romans 3:11.
1 Peter 1:2.
1 Timothy 2:6.
Acts of the Apostles 7:51.
John 10:28.

 

[Humble Disciple]

So I have to conclude that you do not think God was right when He Gave His son for the world. Joh 3:16
And you really do not agree the Christ Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world. 1Jn 2:2

Calvinism's problem

The bible tells us Christ died to take away the sin of the world (Joh_1:29), and He came to call sinners to repentance (Luk_5:32) and since all are sinners (Rom_3:23) and He died for all (2Co_5:14-15; 1Ti_2:6; 1Ti_4:10; 1Jn_2:2), and will draw all people to Himself (Joh_12:32) and those that believe will be saved (Joh_3:16) and those that reject the gospel will be lost. (Joh_3:18) yet, Jesus, upon a Calvinistic presumption, died only for the unconditionally elect, then all people without qualification are unconditionally elected unto faith and final salvation. In this, then, Calvinism promotes Universalism.

When the Pharisees said that all the world was following Jesus, did they literally mean every single person in the world? John 12:19

When Jesus promised to draw all people to Himself (John 12:32), did He mean every single person who ever exists or all kinds of people, from every tribe and nation (Revelation 5:9)?

If John 12:32 means that Jesus draws all people without exception, then that means all people without exception will be saved:

John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

In John 6:44, Jesus says that, if the Father draws you to Jesus, you will be included in the resurrection unto life on the last day. Is the resurrection unto life going to include all people or all kinds of people?

Are all people, without exception, given to Jesus by the Father? If so, all people will be saved (John 6:39).

 

[Humble Disciple]

Disagreements more often than not are over what the text does not say. Either read into the text or a plain meaning is denied. Terminology can be a problem too. Sometimes translation used.
Romans 3:11.
1 Peter 1:2.
1 Timothy 2:6.
Acts of the Apostles 7:51.
John 10:28.

What specifically is your position, Calvinism, Arminianism, provisionism, etc.? And what are the best Biblical arguments in favor of it?

I can tell you that if anyone provides a specific Bible verse that apparently contradicts Calvinism, there's likely a reasonable Calvinist explanation for how it should be interpreted.

The word "Trinity" isn't mentioned anywhere in the Bible, yet we believe in the Trinity because of numerous passages in favor of the doctrine. Passages like Deuteronomy 6:4 apparently contradict the Trinity, and Christians throughout history have provided reasonable explanations.

 

[37818]

Outside of this forum, how familiar are you with the Biblical arguments for the five points of Calvinism, and not just from anti-Calvinist sources? I think we might be talking past each other.

One of my study books: The Five Points of Calvinism, Defined, Defined, Documented. By David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas. Presbyterian
& Reformed Publishing Co.

 

[37818]

What specifically is your position, . . .

Neither Calvinist nor Arminian. To me it is just to be Biblical. Using the five points as a templet. A view of a total depravity. Conditional but wholly unmerited on the elect's part. A general redemption where Christ secured redemption for the elect and to be Judge of the lost. Because of depravity many resist the sanctification of the Spirit. And as to those whom God saves He keeps. I have been a Christian since the summer of 1962.