Limited Atonement: God's Power to Save

I know the Calvinist view is not true, it is precluded by scripture. Why did you skip over 2 Peter 2:1 which says Christ bought those heading for swift destruction? Anyone using the word "atonement" rather than reconciliation does not really understand the notion. Using the word "atonement" Calvinists conflate what was accomplished on the cross with what is accomplished when God places an individual into Christ.

So Christ's death provides the means of salvation for the whole of humanity, Reconciliation provided for all humanity and offered to all who hear and understand the gospel. But the benefits of reconciliation are only "received" by those God puts into Christ.

Thus everyone of the "many are called" has the opportunity for salvation, but only the "few are chosen" receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's death on the cross.

 

Why did you not argue based on it that "limited atonement" to be an absurdity? ". . . even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . .". Also Jude 1:4, ". . . ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ." A key 2 Peter 2,:1 cross reference.

 

Why not address that I did present that the Calvinist view of Limited Atonement was false doctrine. The problem is not with me, but with the false doctrine.

 

My issue with those two stems from experiences. For irresistible grace I've seen folks in my family, all of which are unsaved except for 1 cousin, that go through periods of what I can only term as "seeking for God". Meaning they ask questions and learn about the Lord, yet a couple months down the road they lose all interest again. God is drawing them, but yet they do not convert, which tells me they are resisting. God must be drawing them because man by himself cannot seek God on his own.

For Unconditional Election, when I was Born-Again I was never preached to by a preacher of any kind. I read the Bible in my room one night and did what Christ said to do. At that moment I can recall making a conscious decision that either I fully believe what God says in the Gospels or I don't. Obviously I chose to believe, but I was definitely presented with a choice.

My thought is that God elects those whom He foreknew would accept the Gospel. Many are drawn, but the drawing is not always effectual as man's free will interferes. Without God's Prevenient Grace at the time of drawing man cannot hope to choose correctly. I have no idea what camp that puts me in either .

I'd be happy to read your thoughts on it though. I always give brethren a fair shake .

 

I would not label Calvinists as heretics. What I would say is that the foundation {agustine} was Gnostic and you abuse and misread scripture. Other than that not bad just misinformed.

 

That is a strange leap of logic. Why would what I think of the calvinist degrees make me think less of God? I am not the person that depends upon those to inform him about God. I have creation and Gods' word to do that.

What I do find surprising is the Cognitive Dissonance that is exhibited by so many calvinists.

 

scott

Not unbelievers Christ died for. See unbelievers Christ died for, were by His Death, reconciled to God while they were enemies/unbelievers Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

See unbelievers Christ died for, God for them has been propitiated, His wrath appeased !

 

indeed, as that means that His atonement was a definite way and means provided to actually have some redeemed and saved!

 

I may regret asking, but where does the Bible discuss this “a drop of Jesus’ blood” doctrine?

 

Pick one of your favorite verses that Calvinists use to defend your views then compare it to what the bible text says. Have you left words out, changed the meaning of words etc. You have had these problems pointed out to you any number of times yet you fail to see them. The character of God is sacrificed to your Calvinist views.
The Calvinist determinism is to me the biggest flaw in Calvinism. Calvinism has put God into that box and will fight tooth and nail to keep Him there.

If you want to believe that way it is your choice, well actually that is wrong as under your determinism you can not make choices and what you believe has been determined for you.

 

Your statement is false. The observation in scripture of God's sovereignty and authority in all things is found on every page of the Bible. The context and theme of the whole Bible is God's redemptive plan to save rebellious humans according to his perfect will. All glory be to God alone.
So far, you repeat your philosophy of men like the beat of an Orc drum. You have used and abused the Bible in your attempt to lift up yourself. Any Godward Christian will read your words and know that God does not support your words.

 

Silverhair, I will put the whole context of scripture up against your potshot sentence picking any day of the week. The whole of scripture condemns your view and yet you pimp it out like a Joel Osteen prodigy.

 

Every page but no specific citation. What a joke. Did anyone deny God's sovereignty? Nope so an obfuscation.
Did anyone say God's plan is not to save rebellious humans according to His perfect redemption plan? Nope so more obfuscation. Then we get the usual you, you you false charges like a sand lot bully. Give it a rest...

 

Austin your over the top comments do get really really trying. You do realize that because of your determinist view when you rile against my free will understanding you are just going against God. Remember "determinism", absolute control of all things. I can disagree with many things you say and because of my God given free will I am right in line with His will, but you on the other hand not so much.

Your determinism really does cause you a great deal of trouble. Look at it this way, as soon as a person tries to *convince* anyone to believe that we are not factually and actually free moral agents, they are explicitly denying their beliefs and/or assertions that we are not free moral agents.

Further, if it really were true that we are not free moral agents,
then
we could not reason,
we could not think,
we could not believe,
we could not know.

God's will can be resisted: The Bible has a number of verses showing that man CAN resist God's will: Joh_5:40; Mat_23:37; Luk_13:34; Act_7:51; Mat_21:42; Act_4:11; Luk_7:29-30; 2Th_1:8-9; Rom_10:21; 2Ki_17:14-18

Hard determinism is a natural result of the Calvinistic emphasis on God’s sovereignty. Let me be clear: Every orthodox believer believes God is sovereign. But the classic, Reformed view of God’s sovereignty is a distortion of Scripture. I’m weary of Calvinists who accuse me of denying God’s sovereignty because I reject their views. God IS sovereign. And the free will view that I hold to exalts God’s sovereignty significantly more than Calvin’s view of God’s sovereignty.

 

Must admit you do present some unique interpretations of texts. To bad they are not biblical. But what more should I expect. I have read a number of your posts and you always have a twist included to make them sound like they support your calvinist view.

The only way that Jn12:32 would be interpreted as leading to universalism is from the calvinist view. Just because Christ Jesus draws people does not require that they all come to Him, some will reject the gospel message. But you can not see that as it does not fit your determinism.
Helkúō draw G1670 is used by Jesus of the drawing of souls unto Him (Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32, to draw or induce to come). Word Study Dic.

When you take the time to look at Jn 6:44 in context you can learn something. Look at what Jn 6:45 tells us "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me." So we see that the ones that come to Christ Jesus are those that have heard and learned and then they come to Him. They are not dragged as you would have it. You have miss read the text.

Jn 6:64-65 now why you would pick this I am not sure. Here we have Christ Jesus telling these people they can make a choice "there are some of you who do not believe." thus some must have believed what they had seen and heard. Once again we see that Christ Jesus is not dragging them, as you would have it, He is just saying the offer is there do what you will with it. Christ Jesus knowing who would believe and who would not did not cause either choice.

I have to ask you how did you ever get that interpretation of Jn 3:16? Have you not read that verse in context? Try it I think you will see that it is a invitation to all that believe. That is a universal offer but it has to be accepted as we see in Jn 3:18.

How can anyone take what you say seriously when it is so obvious that you write with a clear agenda. Jn 11:52 yes Gods children are scattered thru out the nations of the world. You should know that Christ Jesus was talking to His disciples in Jn 17:9 but I note that once again you avoid context. Look at Jn 17:20 where we see Him now praying for those that would believe in Him thru the teaching of those same disciples.

Must admit I did expect better of you. This is just proves what I have said many times, Some calvinists tend to abuse the scriptures.

 

You work hard to twist God's word to fit your philosophy.