Limited Atonement

[TCGreek]

Maybe I am misunderstanding you, brother.
are you saying the atonement is universal and unlimited ?

Then we should be universalists if that is the case.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

What I'm really saying is what I've said for years, John Calvin was not as militant , or as dogmatic as most 5 pointers are today with varying degrees of obnoxiousness. I know Calvin had some bad moments but I think for the most part he kept the 2 big commandments, love the Lord God with all your heart soul and strength, and love the brethren as yourself. We need to learn to agree on the essentials and agree to disagree on the non-essentials. To read some on this board you have to wonder who it is they are worshipping.

 

[TomMann]

NO! The facts are that I sinned and came short of the righteousness of God. And I MUST do something about that! God has done all that He can on my behalf at the cross. It's up to me now.

I started to reply to this last night, and again this afternoon, but I get a little grieved and nauseated every time I reflect of what you have said. So much for "Jesus Paid It All"!

 

[skypair]

I started to reply to this last night, and again this afternoon, but I get a little grieved and nauseated every time I reflect of what you have said. So much for "Jesus Paid It All"!

So I take it you have done absolutely nothing in response to Jesus sacrifice?

There is no scriptural mandate, in your view, to believe the gospel in order to be saved?

Is there, Tom, ANY scriptural mandate you must obey for salvation? Any that you can think of? Or have you so compartmentalized "election" from your persona that your salvation is simply a matter of fate?

skypair

 

[Tom Butler]

Then we should be universalists if that is the case.

TC, I have always been intrigued by those who insist that "world" in the scriptures means every person without exception, when the examples are numerous where it does not.

At any rate, I offer II Cor 5:19 for them to chew on: "To wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself; not imputing their trespasses to
them...."

This passage places them on the horns of a dilemma. If Christ is not imputing trespasses to the world, one must choose between universalism or something less than universalism. In other words, limting the world to whom he is not imputing trespasses.

One may turn it around and interpret this passage to mean that God imputes the righteousness of Christ to believers, and forgives the trespasses of those who repent and believe--every repenter in the whole world.

Otherwise, one is stuck with universalism.

 

[Amy.G]

TC, I have always been intrigued by those who insist that "world" in the scriptures means every person without exception, when the examples are numerous where it does not.

At any rate, I offer II Cor 5:19 for them to chew on: "To wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself; not imputing their trespasses to
them...."

This passage places them on the horns of a dilemma. If Christ is not imputing trespasses to the world, one must choose between universalism or something less than universalism. In other words, limting the world to whom he is not imputing trespasses.

One may turn it around and interpret this passage to mean that God imputes the righteousness of Christ to believers, and forgives the trespasses of those who repent and believe--every repenter in the whole world.

Otherwise, one is stuck with universalism.

No. One is not stuck with universalism. You guys keep leaving out something very important, FAITH. There are some who will never believe and therefore will never see eternal life with God. That's why I keep saying that salvation has two parts, a Savior and faith in the Savior. That is why the people who "deny the Lord who bought them" will forever be lost. They denied Christ. They did not put their faith in Him and His finished work. But Christ still did the work of atonement for all men. Not all men will believe, only some.

Christ's work + our faith = salvation.

 

[TCGreek]

TC, I have always been intrigued by those who insist that "world" in the scriptures means every person without exception, when the examples are numerous where it does not.

At any rate, I offer II Cor 5:19 for them to chew on: "To wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself; not imputing their trespasses to
them...."

This passage places them on the horns of a dilemma. If Christ is not imputing trespasses to the world, one must choose between universalism or something less than universalism. In other words, limting the world to whom he is not imputing trespasses.

One may turn it around and interpret this passage to mean that God imputes the righteousness of Christ to believers, and forgives the trespasses of those who repent and believe--every repenter in the whole world.

Otherwise, one is stuck with universalism.

Great use of Scripture, Tom Butler! :thumbs:

"This passage places them on the horns of a dilemma."

 

[Jarthur001]

TC, I have always been intrigued by those who insist that "world" in the scriptures means every person without exception, when the examples are numerous where it does not.

At any rate, I offer II Cor 5:19 for them to chew on: "To wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself; not imputing their trespasses to
them...."

This passage places them on the horns of a dilemma. If Christ is not imputing trespasses to the world, one must choose between universalism or something less than universalism. In other words, limting the world to whom he is not imputing trespasses.

One may turn it around and interpret this passage to mean that God imputes the righteousness of Christ to believers, and forgives the trespasses of those who repent and believe--every repenter in the whole world.

Otherwise, one is stuck with universalism.

Good stuff.

 

[Jarthur001]

No. One is not stuck with universalism. You guys keep leaving out something very important, FAITH. There are some who will never believe and therefore will never see eternal life with God. That's why I keep saying that salvation has two parts, a Savior and faith in the Savior. That is why the people who "deny the Lord who bought them" will forever be lost. They denied Christ. They did not put their faith in Him and His finished work. But Christ still did the work of atonement for all men. Not all men will believe, only some.

Christ's work + our faith = salvation.

Your post does not address the word "world" which was the main point. If world means all of mankind, then II Cor 5:19 means all of mankind will be reconciled.

Also if man must sin to be a sinner as some on this board has claimed, II Cor 5:19 says God will not impute trespasses of the world of mankind when they do sin, therefore all of mankind is not sinners no matter what they do.

If the world of mankind is not born sinners and sins are not imputed to the whole world of mankind, then none of us are sinners, and no one goes to hell, and Faith is not needed.

This my dear sister is universalism.

This is a powerful verse one must deal with.

 

[Allan]

TC, I have always been intrigued by those who insist that "world" in the scriptures means every person without exception, when the examples are numerous where it does not.

At any rate, I offer II Cor 5:19 for them to chew on: "To wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself; not imputing their trespasses to
them...."

This passage places them on the horns of a dilemma. If Christ is not imputing trespasses to the world, one must choose between universalism or something less than universalism. In other words, limting the world to whom he is not imputing trespasses.

One may turn it around and interpret this passage to mean that God imputes the righteousness of Christ to believers, and forgives the trespasses of those who repent and believe--every repenter in the whole world.

Otherwise, one is stuck with universalism.

Poor usage of scripture Tom which seems to bring you to a false conclusion since your beginning with a faulty premise.

You are missing the context for a postulated pretext. God was in Christ 'reconciling' (a process still in continuation according to the verb) the world (all sinful and wicked men) (( , )) not imputing their trespasses..

Does this mean that all sinful men before God will not have their sins imputed toward them..

OR..

Does it mean that through the process of reconcilliation toward the all people whereby those who will believe will not have their sins imputed to them.

It is obviously the later since the passage is refering to a process through which God is bringing men to a place where their sins stand before Him no more.

I know you are not a follower of John Calvin but if you will permit me let me bring a quote from his commentary on John 3:16 :
And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers.

Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.

Question: What must be done in order for God to be reconciled to a person or people? Is it not the atonement??
How then is God reconciled to the whole world without an atoning sacrifice??? And..
How can he offer life to all men indiscrinately without it being a lie unless there is a reconciliation that has been done through an atonement????

You will note that God in Christ is reconciling the world to Himself however it is not stating that God IS reconciled to the world. Why? Because Paul goes on in 5:20 to state for them to be "reconciled" to God. Thus the full process of reconcilliation through which our sins are not imputed against us deals first with Gods side (whereby through the propitation which does not procure his love or make him loving; it only renders it consistent for him to execise his love towards sinners) but that does nothing if man does not recieve it or as Paul puts to become reconciled to God.

Here is Easton Bible dictionary on reconciliation:

Reconciliation

A CHANGE FROM ENMITY TO FRIENDSHIP. IT IS MUTUAL, I.E., IT IS A CHANGE WROUGHT IN BOTH PARTIES WHO HAVE BEEN AT ENMITY.

(1.) In Col. 1:21, 22, the word there used refers to a change wrought in the personal character of the sinner who ceases to be an enemy to God by wicked works, and yields up to him his full confidence and love. In 2 Cor. 5:20 the apostle beseeches the Corinthians to be “reconciled to God”, i.e., to lay aside their enmity.

(2.) Rom. 5:10 refers not to any change in our disposition toward God, but to God himself, as the party reconciled. Romans (Rom. 5:11) teaches the same truth. From God we have received “the reconciliation” (R.V.), i.e., he has conferred on us the token of his friendship. So also 2 Cor. 5:18, 19 speaks of a reconciliation originating with God, and consisting in the removal of his merited wrath. In Eph. 2:16 it is clear that the apostle does not refer to the winning back of the sinner in love and loyalty to God, but to the restoration of God’s forfeited favour. This is effected by his justice being satisfied, so that he can, in consistency with his own nature, be favourable toward sinners. Justice demands the punishment of sinners. The death of Christ satisfies justice, and so reconciles God to us. This reconciliation makes God our friend, and enables him to pardon and save us. (See ATONEMENT.)

This goes back to what I posted earlier in this thread which discusses Christ's propitiation in relation to 1 John 2:2 (not ours only ..) and it relates here as well.


The very nature of what it is talking contextually is the process where by God in Christ has been brought to a position where He can offer to salvation to all and it not be a lie. And yet.. at the same time be able to righteously exclude some people from that life in Christ.

This is long I know But let me conclude here:

How can the general call ( the gospel of salvation) be preached to all men everywhere if it is not in some way applicable toward them all. God must be reconciled in some way through Christ in order to make this declartion otherwise God is a liar. Thus He is in Christ reconciling the world (all sinful and wicked men), not imputing their sins.. but you must be reconciled to God that our sins be blotted out. We see this in reconciliation above (God does one part and man must believe in order that your sins are not imputed) and the same in the propitiation (God does one part and man must believe in order for it to be imputed to them - Rom 3:25).

It is to all men everywhere but imputed only toward those of faith.

 

[Allan]

Your post does not address the word "world" which was the main point. If world means all of mankind, then II Cor 5:19 means all of mankind will be reconciled.

Also if man must sin to be a sinner as some on this board has claimed, II Cor 5:19 says God will not impute trespasses of the world of mankind when they do sin, therefore all of mankind is not sinners no matter what they do.

If the world of mankind is not born sinners and sins are not imputed to the whole world of mankind, then none of us are sinners, and no one goes to hell, and Faith is not needed.

This my dear sister is universalism.

This is a powerful verse one must deal with.

First, it isn't universalism just your misunderstanding of the text in question as I see it.
Also.. I can't find any lexical aide that states your version of the term 'world' means at any time, anywhere - God's people.

Every time it is used in relation of men to God it is always in every instance - wicked and sinful mankind as seperate from God's people. Its definition was established in the OT and continued in the NT with no deviation. Sorry, it just ain't there.

 

[Jarthur001]

First, it isn't universalism just your misunderstanding of the text in question as I see it.
Also.. I can't find any lexical aide that states your version of the term 'world' means at any time, anywhere - God's people.

Every time it is used in relation of men to God it is always in every instance - wicked and sinful mankind as seperate from God's people. Its definition was established in the OT and continued in the NT with no deviation. Sorry, it just ain't there.

Hello Allan,

It can be very easy. Does the word world mean all of mankind?

2 Corinthians 5:19 (Young's Literal Translation)
19how that God was in Christ -- a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation

I feel the "world" is limited here and does not apply to each person that has ever been born.

other Bibles...

2 Corinthians 5:19 (Darby Translation)
19how that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their offences; and putting in us the word of that reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (21st Century King James Version)
19to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the Word of reconciliation

.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (Amplified Bible)
19It was God [personally present] in Christ, reconciling and restoring the world to favor with Himself, not counting up and holding against [men] their trespasses [but cancelling them], and committing to us the message of reconciliation (of the restoration to favor)

.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (New International Version)
19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (The Message)
God put the world square with himself through the Messiah, giving the world a fresh start by offering forgiveness of sins. God has given us the task of telling everyone what he is doing. We're Christ's representatives. God uses us to persuade men and women to drop their differences and enter into God's work of making things right between them. We're speaking for Christ himself now: Become friends with God; he's already a friend with you.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (English Standard Version)
19that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Is this saying all of mankind (the world) is reconciled in Christ?

Or is this limited to a group? That group being the believers/the elect of God.

 

[Amy.G]

Well, Allan beat me to the punch because I was going to say that the key word here is "reconciling". The word "world" as Allan has pointed out numerous times always refers to sinful mankind. An exception would be if "world" referred to the earth or globe.

The verse says that God is "reconciling" the world to Himself. He does this through the atonement and the gospel ("the word of reconciliation").


Christ died for all sinners without exception.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


This includes everybody, not just the "elect" according to Calvinism, because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

 

[Allan]

Hello Allan,

It can be very easy. Does the word world mean all of mankind?



I feel the "world" is limited here and does not apply to each person that has ever been born.

other Bibles...



.

.







Is this saying all of mankind (the world) is reconciled in Christ?

Or is this limited to a group? That group being the believers/the elect of God.

Post #90 clarifies this and how it does mean all men (every sinful and wicked person).

 

[Outsider]

Is this saying all of mankind (the world) is reconciled in Christ?

Or is this limited to a group? That group being the believers/the elect of God.

James,
Just consider if it apply's to all mankind, at birth. He bought and paid for everyone. Not that all go to heaven, but that all are born alive by the works of Christ on the cross.

We sometimes think of a scripture and picture an unregenerated person. Think of a new born child and the love Christ has for it.
The gospel is the good news. Not the good news for some and bad news for others. Without Christ we would all be born dead. Now, we are all born not seperated from the love of Christ.

This is where the universalists miss the mark (IMO). They feel it is at the end of one's life that even an unregenerate is reconciled to Christ. I see it that we are all reconciled to Him in the beginning.

God bless and many blessings!!!

 

[Outsider]

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Amy,
I do feel that Paul was talking about a select group here. I believe he was referring to himself and those that have been saved only.

The reason why I believe this scripture is for them only, is because in verse 9.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

I see the "We" in verse 9, being the same as the "Us" in verse 8.
To remain consistant, if the "Us in v 8, is the "We" in v 9, then scripture would be telling us that "All" are justified. Paul was letting them know that they are now justified and will be saved from God's wrath (to come).

Just the way I see it anyway.
God bless and many blessings!!!

 

[Amy.G]

Amy,
I do feel that Paul was talking about a select group here. I believe he was referring to himself and those that have been saved only.

The reason why I believe this scripture is for them only, is because in verse 9.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

I see the "We" in verse 9, being the same as the "Us" in verse 8.
To remain consistant, if the "Us in v 8, is the "We" in v 9, then scripture would be telling us that "All" are justified. Paul was letting them know that they are now justified and will be saved from God's wrath (to come).

Just the way I see it anyway.
God bless and many blessings!!!

Hello Outsider. You are such a nice person to talk with. Yes, I agree that Paul was referring to himself and other saved individuals, but I was trying to make a point that Christ died for sinners, and all are sinners, even the "elect".
Maybe I didn't do a good job of point-making. :laugh:

 

[Outsider]

Hello Outsider. You are such a nice person to talk with. Yes, I agree that Paul was referring to himself and other saved individuals, but I was trying to make a point that Christ died for sinners, and all are sinners, even the "elect".
Maybe I didn't do a good job of point-making.

Thank you for the compliment. I feel the same towards you.
I understand your point and understand it now. Thanks for the clarification.

God bless and many blessings to you and yours!!!

 

[TomMann]

So I take it you have done absolutely nothing in response to Jesus sacrifice?

There is no scriptural mandate, in your view, to believe the gospel in order to be saved?

Is there, Tom, ANY scriptural mandate you must obey for salvation? Any that you can think of? Or have you so compartmentalized "election" from your persona that your salvation is simply a matter of fate?

skypair

Water boils when it is heated. It doesn't decide to boil, it doesn't cooperate in the process. It is acted upon and as a result takes on a new nature, steam.

Are there changes in an individual to whom Christ is revealed? Absolutely there are. But they are a result of salvation and not the cause.

Are there scriptural mandates to be obeyed? No! Are there scriptural evidences that will be seen? Yes.

If your definition of fate is predetermined or predestinated outcome? I don't argue against your saying I believe in fate.

 

[Amy.G]

Water boils when it is heated. It doesn't decide to boil, it doesn't cooperate in the process. It is acted upon and as a result takes on a new nature, steam.

Are there changes in an individual to whom Christ is revealed? Absolutely there are. But they are a result of salvation and not the cause.

Are there scriptural mandates to be obeyed? No! Are there scriptural evidences that will be seen? Yes.

If your definition of fate is predetermined or predestinated outcome? I don't argue against your saying I believe in fate.

Are you saying that faith is a result of salvation?

The scriptural mandate to be obeyed is to believe the gospel of Christ.