Limited Autonomus Will

[Silverhair]

Well its a good thing that free-will is not in eternal Salvation or we would all be toast!... Brother Glen

Romans 11: 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Both Jews and Gentiles!

Glen the verses you quoted are for the Jews not for the gentiles. Context will clear up your misunderstanding.

Rom 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;
Rom 11:27 FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

So you see free will is found in the bible, all you have to do is open your eyes.

 

[AustinC]

Glen the verses you quoted are for the Jews not for the gentiles. Context will clear up your misunderstanding.

Rom 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;
Rom 11:27 FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

So you see free will is found in the bible, all you have to do is open your eyes.

It seems Sliverhair denies Romans 2 and Romans 9 as well as Galatians 3 which all tell us that Abraham's offspring are those whom God chose to save from all nations. I wonder if he thinks only Jews can be saved, like the Judaizers proclaimed?

How Sliverhair gets free will from Romans 11 is truly a mystery.

 

[Van]

I understand that this is more of your crusade against 'Calvinism' and it's five points, TULIP.

It appears that you're rejecting TOTAL DREPRAVITY while accepting UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION.

Is that correct?

As usual you post non-germane nonsense to hide truth.
Does the bible say receiving God's mercy does not depend on the person who wills to receive God's mercy? Yes, therefore Total Spiritual Inability is false doctrine. See Romans 9:16.

The crusade is for Truth and against the false doctrines posted by its dupes.

 

[kyredneck]

As usual you post non-germane nonsense to hide truth.
Does the bible say receiving God's mercy does not depend on the person who wills to receive God's mercy? Yes, therefore Total Spiritual Inability is false doctrine. See Romans 9:16.

As usual you post more gobbledy gook of Vanology that has to be deciphered in order to determine exactly what you mean.

You said:

people will to be saved and do things to be saved, even though their actions do not result in salvation

Jesus spoke in parables without providing an explanation to prevent them from seeing, hearing and understanding. Thus they had some spiritual ability that had to be countered by using parables.

Jesus spoke in parables and God hardened hearts to prevent the lost from using their limited autonomous will to respond to the gospel.

Again, it appears that you're rejecting TOTAL DREPRAVITY while accepting UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION. Is that correct?

Van:
'Some people want to be saved but God won't save them'.

Isn't that the whole gist of your complaint against 'Calvinism'?

 

[Van]

As usual you post more gobbledy gook of Vanology that has to be deciphered in order to determine exactly what you mean.
SNIP
Again, it appears that you're rejecting TOTAL DREPRAVITY while accepting UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION. Is that correct?

Van:
'Some people want to be saved but God won't save them'.

Isn't that the whole gist of your complaint against 'Calvinism'?

More gobbledy gook, more disinformation, more falsehood to bury truth.
The topic is the biblical doctrine of Limited Autonomous Will, we can choose within the purview allowed by God. The lost cannot choose to understand spiritual solid food (meat) because it takes the indwelt Spirit of God to discern those truths.

Romans 9:14-16
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it!
For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.” So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy.The "it" in Romans 9:16 refers to receiving mercy and compassion. Receiving "it" does not depend "on the person who wants [mercy and compassion] or on the person who "runs" [does things to obtain mercy and compassion].​

Van said: ↑
Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved
The men who will and/or run are those seeking salvation. Thus Romans 9:16 teaches that some people seek salvation proving "total spiritual inability" is unbiblical.

 

[kyredneck]

Romans 9:14-16
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it!
For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.” So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy.The "it" in Romans 9:16 refers to receiving mercy and compassion. Receiving "it" does not depend "on the person who wants [mercy and compassion] or on the person who "runs" [does things to obtain mercy and compassion].

I don't get it. How does this (your) view of the passage differ from the Calvinist view? Where's the big controversy?

 

[Van]

I don't get it. How does this (your) view of the passage differ from the Calvinist view? Where's the big controversy?

I am not the one posting post after post finding fault with Romans 9:16 teaching the lost can will and work in an effort to obtain mercy and compassion from God. Obviously they have sufficient, but limited, spiritual ability to seek God and believe in Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

I am not the one posting post after post finding fault with Romans 9:16 teaching the lost can will and work in an effort to obtain mercy and compassion from God.

Ok. I was correct. You reject the Calvinist doctrine of TOTAL DEPRAVITY (surprise, surprise), but you accept the Calvinist doctrine of UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION. You say the unregenerate can indeed seek God but it's totally God's choice whether to grant mercy and compassion:

people will to be saved and do things to be saved, even though their actions do not result in salvation

Jesus spoke in parables without providing an explanation to prevent them from seeing, hearing and understanding. Thus they had some spiritual ability that had to be countered by using parables.

Jesus spoke in parables and God hardened hearts to prevent the lost from using their limited autonomous will to respond to the gospel.

I reiterate:

"Van:
'Some people want to be saved but God won't save them'.

Isn't that the whole gist of your complaint against 'Calvinism'?"

 

[Van]

Ok. I was correct. You reject the Calvinist doctrine of TOTAL DEPRAVITY (surprise, surprise), but you accept the Calvinist doctrine of UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION. You say the unregenerate can indeed seek God but it's totally God's choice whether to grant mercy and compassion:
I reiterate:

"Van:
'Some people want to be saved but God won't save them'.

Isn't that the whole gist of your complaint against 'Calvinism'?"

Your whole gist is against truth.

God gives grace to the humble but opposes the proud. Anyone can see His choice is conditional.

 

[kyredneck]

God gives grace to the humble but opposes the proud. Anyone can see His choice is conditional.

5 Or think ye that the scripture speaketh in vain? Doth the spirit which he made to dwell in us long unto envying?
6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore the scripture saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble. Ja 4

Vanology translation and misapplication:
'God has mercy on the lost seekers that are humble but hardens the lost seekers that are proud.'

 

[unprofitable]

Romans 9:14-16
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it!
For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.” So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy.​

The "it" in Romans 9:16 refers to receiving mercy and compassion. Receiving "it" does not depend "on the person who wants [mercy and compassion] or on the person who "runs" [does things to obtain mercy and compassion].

Van said: ↑
Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved​

The men who will and/or run are those seeking salvation. Thus Romans 9:16 teaches that some people seek salvation proving "total spiritual inability" is unbiblical.

That men work and run to be saved does not show spiritual ability. The problem is with how they seek the Lord. They do it of their own accord and understanding and not according to the scriptures. Those who seek God through their own understanding, often misled by their pastors, have not sought God in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24) (Jer 23:21).

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but NOT according to knowledge.
Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteoousness and going about to ESTABLISH THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS,
have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God (and his kingdom Matt 6:33)
This was true during the time of Christ. It is still true today in so called Christianity. It is true on Baptist Board.

Some would say that according to Romans 9:32 they sought it not by faith, but then they try to seek it by their own faith and understanding apart from the faith given by Christ. Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ (ordained by Christ), not only to believe on him, but to suffer for his sake. Since it was necessary to be given to us we must have been lacking and not had the ability to obtain of our own selves. That is why it was ordained or commanded of Christ. Ps 71:30 says, ..."thou hast given commandment to save me." This is part of the work of the good shepherd seeking out his lost sheep. We were lost and could not find out way back to fellowship with God through the righteousness of Christ. We didn't find Christ, he, as the good shepherd, found us. All we like sheep had gone astray. (Isaiah 53:6) It is HIS faith given to us and working in us that enables us to believe and to believe rightly, and not according to our own vain imaginations.

It is not according to a self righteous limited autonomous will,

 

[unprofitable]

1) Why did Jesus speak in parables in Matthew 13, if the lost could not hear and understand the milk of the gospel?

Answer Matthew 13

"10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 ]Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.​

Jesus spoke in parables without providing an explanation to prevent them from seeing, hearing and understanding. Thus they had some spiritual ability that had to be countered by using parables.

2) Why did God harden the hearts of the disbelieving Jews in Romans 11, if they were already unable to respond to the gospel.

Answer Romans 11 "

7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
8 just as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”

9 And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”​

Scripture says God prevented the unbelieving Jews from seeing, hearing and understanding, which means they had that capacity before God hardened them.

Again, IMHO, it is obvious that Jesus spoke in parables and God hardened hearts to prevent the lost from using their limited autonomous will to respond to the gospel.

Christ spoke to the Jews in parables, not because of their ability to believe, but because they had no ability to believe, they would misinterpret the message of the kingdom and doing so would seek to destroy it. He told them to not cast their pearls before swine lest they turn and rend them. They could only do violence to the law (Zephaniah 3:4) and likewise could only do violence to the kingdom.

 

[Van]

That men work and run to be saved does not show spiritual ability. The problem is with how they seek the Lord. They do it of their own accord and understanding and not according to the scriptures. Those who seek God through their own understanding, often misled by their pastors, have not sought God in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24) (Jer 23:21).

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but NOT according to knowledge.
Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteoousness and going about to ESTABLISH THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS,
have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God (and his kingdom Matt 6:33)
This was true during the time of Christ. It is still true today in so called Christianity. It is true on Baptist Board.

Some would say that according to Romans 9:32 they sought it not by faith, but then they try to seek it by their own faith and understanding apart from the faith given by Christ. Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ (ordained by Christ), not only to believe on him, but to suffer for his sake. Since it was necessary to be given to us we must have been lacking and not had the ability to obtain of our own selves. That is why it was ordained or commanded of Christ. Ps 71:30 says, ..."thou hast given commandment to save me." This is part of the work of the good shepherd seeking out his lost sheep. We were lost and could not find out way back to fellowship with God through the righteousness of Christ. We didn't find Christ, he, as the good shepherd, found us. All we like sheep had gone astray. (Isaiah 53:6) It is HIS faith given to us and working in us that enables us to believe and to believe rightly, and not according to our own vain imaginations.

It is not according to a self righteous limited autonomous will,

Your claim that willing and working to receive God's mercy and compassion does not show spiritual ability is absurd.

Romans says the lost learn from what God has made the invisible attributes of God. You probably deny this shows spiritual ability.

In Matthew 23:13 we have an example that Falseology's "not really showing spiritual ability" dodge does not work, for Jesus says that were "entering" the kingdom. And to be in the process of entering shows spiritual ability to some degree.

Either be believe the bible or we rewrite it such that it means the opposite of what it says. Like those who will to be saved do not really will to be saved.

 

[Van]

Christ spoke to the Jews in parables, not because of their ability to believe, but because they had no ability to believe, they would misinterpret the message of the kingdom and doing so would seek to destroy it. He told them to not cast their pearls before swine lest they turn and rend them. They could only do violence to the law (Zephaniah 3:4) and likewise could only do violence to the kingdom.

Yet another absurd and obviously false argument.
Jesus spoke in parables without an explanation because He did not want His message communicated to all at that time. However, since the NT includes the explanation, the time for all to understand has arrived.

 

[Van]

The idea we are free to choose from among available options is consistent with our experience. Scripture tells us God sometimes restricts our options, i.e. hardening the hearts of some such that they will reject the gospel, i.e. Romans 11.

"The absence of free will is, however, devastating to all theists since without it you cannot choose to be evil or good, and therefore deserve neither punishment nor salvation."
So the complete absence of free or autonomous will is irrational and unrestricted free will is unbiblical. Some assert since we are free to choose among various sinful actions, but unable to choose the narrow path that leads to life, it makes sense for God to punish us for the sin we chose. Rational minds object.

We can harden our own hearts by the practice of sin. And God can harden hearts for His purpose, such as Romans 11. God can choose a person well on the way of hardening his own heart, and complete the process. Scripture does not rule any of the three out.

Some say whatsoever comes to pass is predestined to occur. Therefore God is the author of sin. Then some others say while it is true that God to be sovereign must predestine everything, that does not make God the author of sin. Rational minds object.

Why would God still blame us for our choices after He hardened our heart? My answer is He would not. But prior to that those hardened did make sinful choices, sealing their fate. The hardening, like physical death, simply ends the opportunity to obtain mercy. God, as the potter has the right to harden whoever He pleases.

Why would God do that, cut short the opportunity of some, and endure their hardened behavior? God did so to make known the riches of His glory (see Romans 9), including even us which He called not from Jews only but also from among Gentiles.

Our ability to make choices from a among various options can be restricted by God for His purpose, thus the Biblical doctrine is "Limited Autonomus Will."

Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved, thus total spiritual inability as the result of the Fall is shown to be mistaken doctrine.

So when you see disputes raging over complete slavery to sin versus complete freedom of our will, consider that we are fallen and therefore predisposed to sin with a corrupt nature, but we are not so incapacitated as to not be responsible for our choices to reject Christ, or to not treat others as we would treat ourselves, because we have the capacity to accept Christ, and strive to do the will of God.

 

[kyredneck]

Christ spoke to the Jews in parables, not because of their ability to believe, but because they had no ability to believe, they would misinterpret the message of the kingdom and doing so would seek to destroy it. He told them to not cast their pearls before swine lest they turn and rend them. They could only do violence to the law (Zephaniah 3:4) and likewise could only do violence to the kingdom.

They were the "flock of slaughter".

 

[DaveXR650]

Van, Post 55 above sounds pretty well thought out to me. It would be what most non-Calvinist Baptists would agree to I would think. And it would also be in line with the way a lot of Reformed writers and Puritans actually teach and preach, if you read a lot of their sermons.

 

[kyredneck]

Van, Post 55 above sounds pretty well thought out to me.

It'd be nice to know who he quoted.

 

[unprofitable]

Yet another absurd and obviously false argument.

You got me. I am cut to the core. I am crushed. To quote Fred Sanford, "Can you hear me, Elizabeth?"

You might want to give me some scripture to counter what I said rather than your opinion.

When I was a child, I thought as a child. I used to love the song, Now I'm Coming Home. It gave me the emotional effect, addressed by @AustinC in another post, that I wanted to think was connecting me to Christ. I believed I (me, me,me) was assisting Christ by taking steps to return to him rather than him seeking me out and delivering me by the work of his hands.
I thank God that I have been delivered from such emotional songs and lies.

I believed I was taking steps in my own salvation. Since you believe that you have limited autonomous will, what steps did you take to save yourself?

 

[unprofitable]

Made another error on quote.