Limited redeemed, not Limited redemption.

[AustinC]

Not sure how you keep missing the point of the text.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Notice Believe & Not Believe those are things people have to do, that is unless you think God does it for them?

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

There it is again, the people have to do something. Strange how the bible keeps pointing that out.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

This is becoming repetitive, God just wants us to know that we have to do something, we have to believe.

Just trust the scriptures Austin. You said that you at one time believed in free will, well I think if you just trust the text you will find that it is what the bible is teaching.

Indeed, believing and not believing are shown by our actions. This act of belief is an effect which is caused by God the Holy Spirit making that person alive so that they believe.
Silverhair, there is no place in scripture that says to someone "you must accept" in order to believe. That is your free will philosophy that switches cause and effect so that you teach humans as the cause agent that effects God.
Why do you hate it when God is the cause agent of our belief?

 

[Silverhair]

Indeed, believing and not believing are shown by our actions. This act of belief is an effect which is caused by God the Holy Spirit making that person alive so that they believe.
Silverhair, there is no place in scripture that says to someone "you must accept" in order to believe. That is your free will philosophy that switches cause and effect so that you teach humans as the cause agent that effects God.
Why do you hate it when God is the cause agent of our belief?

Well if you stick to the view that is called Calvinism then you have to accept the reality that God has condemned billions to hell just because He wanted to do so. Man cannot be held responsible for something they have no control over. But you think they should be.

You will say it is because they sin but if God determines all things as Calvinism requires then even the sin that man does is determined by Him not the man. Your Calvinism is a mass of contradictions which requires you to deny the logical outworking of your theology. When you have to put qualifiers in your theory, be it LBCF or DoG etc then you have a problem.

While your view and the bible will line up on some points, you hold to other point that run off into the tall grass. A better question is why do you, Austin, not want to follow what the bible says? Even when I give you clear text you avoid it.

You ask "Why do you hate it when God is the cause agent of our belief?" but I would ask you why do you think God does not want people to make real choices about their eternal future?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 1:00 PM Pacific.

 

[AustinC]

Well if you stick to the view that is called Calvinism then you have to accept the reality that God has condemned billions to hell just because He wanted to do so. Man cannot be held responsible for something they have no control over. But you think they should be.

You have to take this up with Paul and with God.
Paul fully anticipated your complaint and answers it.
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
~ Romans 9:18-24

God is not silent regarding your complaint. I read what God tells me and I am content with His answer.

Silverhair, you don't seem content with what God tells you. Can you tell us why you are discontented with what God tells you?

 

[Silverhair]

You have to take this up with Paul and with God.
Paul fully anticipated your complaint and answers it.
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
~ Romans 9:18-24

God is not silent regarding your complaint. I read what God tells me and I am content with His answer.

Silverhair, you don't seem content with what God tells you. Can you tell us why you are discontented with what God tells you?

What do you think my complaint is? I do not question what God does or has done. The bible is clear that He expects man to make a choice to follow or reject Christ Jesus. You are the one that seems to not be able to accept what God has said. If someone has a complaint against God that would be you as He does not work the way you would like Him to.

For some reason you think that God only shows His wrath but not His love. If you have children then you know that even though you may have to discipline your children you still love them and want the best for them.

 

[agedman]

What do you think my complaint is? I do not question what God does or has done. The bible is clear that He expects man to make a choice to follow or reject Christ Jesus. You are the one that seems to not be able to accept what God has said. If someone has a complaint against God that would be you as He does not work the way you would like Him to.

For some reason you think that God only shows His wrath but not His love. If you have children then you know that even though you may have to discipline your children you still love them and want the best for them.

You said, “Man cannot be held responsible for something they have no control over. But you think they should be.”

If God, choosing to redeem those for His purpose, is Glorified by the doing, that is His business, and not ours to question.

He is not unjust, humans are.

He does not lack understanding, humans do.

He is the just and justifier, not humans.

…

 

[Silverhair]

You said, “Man cannot be held responsible for something they have no control over. But you think they should be.”

If God, choosing to redeem those for His purpose, is Glorified by the doing, that is His business, and not ours to question.

He is not unjust, humans are.

He does not lack understanding, humans do.

He is the just and justifier, not humans.

…

If God is sovereign as the Calvinists would have you believe then God has determined all that happens, man has zero/no free will. Everything that has or will happen has been determined by God. So if God has determined all things that happen that would include all sin/evil so man only does what God has determined for him to do. The Calvinist will say that man does what he most desires, but in Calvinism even that is determined by God so once again Calvinism makes God the only free agent and thus He is made responsible for all sin/evil.

After reading what you wrote here it would seem to me that you want a God that is all powerful but shows no love for His creation. You say He is just but then see no problem with Him condemning billions to hell for sin they have not control over. You either have a God that controls all things {Calvinism} or you have a God that in His sovereignty has allowed for true free will choices in which man is able to decide to follow or reject Christ Jesus.

 

[Salty]

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