Limited redeemed, not Limited redemption.

[Reformed1689]

Sorry posted this before I saw your response so I edited it.

be safe at work.


More and more Calvinists are recognizing this fact concerning the writing of John, and as I have shown are making proper adjustments to their view of atonement.

If Christ died for every individual, which He did not, then his blood was wasted and not able to save those that are condemned. That's a weak Christ. Not biblical. In no way is world referring to individuals, rather, it refers to groups of people in most cases. Christ said Himself he gave his life for his SHEEP. Not for the whole world.

 

[agedman]

If Christ died for every individual, which He did not, then his blood was wasted and not able to save those that are condemned. That's a weak Christ. Not biblical. In no way is world referring to individuals, rather, it refers to groups of people in most cases. Christ said Himself he gave his life for his SHEEP. Not for the whole world.

Never stated He died for every individual.

the death and resurrection are benefits to the believer.

Dead folks do not shed blood.

 

[Reformed1689]

Never stated He died for every individual.

the death and resurrection are benefits to the believer.

Dead folks do not shed blood.

That's what this whole thread is about, every individual vs the elect only. What are you getting on about?

 

[agedman]

That's what this whole thread is about, every individual vs the elect only. What are you getting on about?

Do not conbine the shedding of blood with the death and resurrection.

Again, John is very specific concerning the blood was for all creation (kosmos), as such we preach the reconciliation between God and man as ambassadors of Christ.

Ultimately, the redemption is in belief as John 3 states.

 

[Reformed1689]

1. 1. 1. The word world is used many different ways in the Gospel of John. A study of the book reveals that cosmos (world) is used ten different ways throughout the book.
         
         1. The entire universe or created order. (John 1:10)
            
            
         2. The physical earth. (John 13:1)
            
            
         3. World system (John 12:31)
            
            
         4. All Unbelievers (John 7:7)
            
            
         5. A large group (John 12:19)
            
            
         6. The General Public (John 7:4)
            
            
         7. Large groups both Jews and Gentiles (John 1:29)
            
            
         8. The human realm in general (John 3:16)
            
            
         9. The non-elect (John 17:9)
            
            
         10. The Elect (John 3:17)
             

 

[agedman]

1. 1. 1. The word world is used many different ways in the Gospel of John. A study of the book reveals that cosmos (world) is used ten different ways throughout the book.
         1. The entire universe or created order. (John 1:10)
            
            
         2. The physical earth. (John 13:1)
            
            
         3. World system (John 12:31)
            
            
         4. All Unbelievers (John 7:7)
            
            
         5. A large group (John 12:19)
            
            
         6. The General Public (John 7:4)
            
            
         7. Large groups both Jews and Gentiles (John 1:29)
            
            
         8. The human realm in general (John 3:16)
            
            
         9. The non-elect (John 17:9)
            
            
         10. The Elect (John 3:17)

Yep, just as as I posted.

the ONLY time it does not apply to the whole world is item #10 according to the Calvinist!

And THAT is why the Calvinists are slowly coming to recognize this error!

There is no reason to take a single verse out of 11 (for they left out John’s letter. ) in which the word means everyone in the world or everyone EXCEPT believers.

Calvinists need to get the error corrected and adjust their view of the atonement to make it biblical.

 

[Reformed1689]

Yep, just as as I posted.

the ONLY time it does not apply to the whole world is item #10 according to the Calvinist!

And THAT is why the Calvinists are slowly coming to recognize this error!

There is no reason to take a single verse out of 11 (for they left out John’s letter. ) in which the word means everyone in the world or everyone EXCEPT believers.

Calvinists need to get the error corrected and adjust their view of the atonement to make it biblical.

Um, you might want to read my post again.

 

[Silverhair]

I do read things in context, that's how I know world does not always mean every individual.

Well why would you think it always means every individual. You have to read things in context to get the proper meaning. But remember that you have to read things in context which is something you seem to have a problem with.

 

[Silverhair]

If Christ died for every individual, which He did not, then his blood was wasted and not able to save those that are condemned. That's a weak Christ. Not biblical. In no way is world referring to individuals, rather, it refers to groups of people in most cases. Christ said Himself he gave his life for his SHEEP. Not for the whole world.

For the Calvinist, “If I asked you if Jesus died for the church you would say yes and point to Eph_5:25. If I asked you if Jesus died for the sheep you would say yes and point to Joh_10:11. If I asked you if Jesus died for Paul you would say yes and point to Gal_2:20. But when I point out that Jesus died for the world in places such as 1Jn_2:2, you turn and deny this simply because your theology will not allow it and not because of your conviction from Scripture.” Again, Scripture is clear that Jesus died for the sheep, the Church, Paul, us, the world, etc. but not once do we find that He died only for the elect. This must be implied through doctrinal presupposition instead of Scripture.

For Whom Did Christ Die?

1Ti_2:6; Isa_53:6 all
Heb_2:9; 1Ti_4:10 every man
Joh_3:16-17 the world
1Jn_2:2 sins of the whole world
Rom_5:6 the ungodly
2Pe_2:1 false teachers
Mat_20:28 many
Joh_11:50-51 Israel
Eph_5:25 the Church
Gal_2:20 “me”

 

[Reformed1689]

Well why would you think it always means every individual.

Pretty sure I have been very clear I do not think this.

 

[Reformed1689]

But when I point out that Jesus died for the world in places such as 1Jn_2:2, you turn and deny this simply because your theology will not allow it and not because of your conviction from Scripture.”

And of course this is 100% dishonest.

 

[Dave G]

@Silverhair :
I'd like to make one more set of replies to you in order to help clarify something;
You make this statement below:

Faith is the requirement that God has set so it is not a work nor is it merit. Actually when you look at it Christ Jesus this regarding work and faith. Joh_6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

So you see Dave we are told that we must believe in Christ Jesus. And we know He was speaking of salvation because of the context of that verse.Joh 6:26-28

Respectfully,
and notwithstanding that I see a contradiction in the underlined that if God requires faith from us before He can save us, it makes salvation actually merited by our faith...

I agree that He was speaking of salvation in the passage that you've referenced ( John 6:26-29 ),
but I also see that you've connected faith as being the requirement that God sets before us, and you do so not realizing what the passage actually states:

" Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

 

[Dave G]

I see that the Jews here were seeking Him for the wrong reason:

Because they had their stomachs filled, and not because they recognized their need of Him spiritually or because they saw the miracles and believed on Him.
He is answering them according to what He says further down in John 6:63:

" It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life."

The words the Lord was speaking to them were spiritual, not carnal.
As His people, it is the Spirit that makes one alive, while the flesh profits us nothing.

Also, based on what He tells them later on in John 8:43-47, they ( for the most part ) did not hear Him, because they were not "of God";
Therefore, because they were not "of God" ( His sheep ) and were asking Him questions whose answers they would not accept or even understand, I see that they asked Him the wrong question in John 6:28.

He tells them in the previous verse not to labor for the "meat" that perishes, but for that which endures to everlasting life...which He would give them.
When they ask Him, "... What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?", they asked Him how they could do God's work...
But only God can do God's work.
We as men cannot do God's work unless He does those things through us ( see Philippians 2:13 ).

So, Jesus is not telling them how to do God's works in John 6:29, but that it is the work "of God" for someone to believe on Christ:

" Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

This agrees with the many passages that tell us that the Lord chooses someone and causes them to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 ), that it is given to them to believe ( Philippians 1:29 ), that faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ), and that He opens the heart so that someone will listen to His words ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

Again, you and I see this passage ( as well as many others ) very differently, as we ( undoubtedly ) see all of John 6 very differently.
Because of this, I feel that we must agree to disagree, and leave it at that.


That said, I wish you well, sir.
May the Lord bless you with both wisdom and knowledge, as well as many good and perfect gifts.

 

[agedman]

For the Calvinist, “If I asked you if Jesus died for the church you would say yes and point to Eph_5:25. If I asked you if Jesus died for the sheep you would say yes and point to Joh_10:11. If I asked you if Jesus died for Paul you would say yes and point to Gal_2:20. But when I point out that Jesus died for the world in places such as 1Jn_2:2, you turn and deny this simply because your theology will not allow it and not because of your conviction from Scripture.” Again, Scripture is clear that Jesus died for the sheep, the Church, Paul, us, the world, etc. but not once do we find that He died only for the elect. This must be implied through doctrinal presupposition instead of Scripture.

For Whom Did Christ Die?

1Ti_2:6; Isa_53:6 all
Heb_2:9; 1Ti_4:10 every man
Joh_3:16-17 the world
1Jn_2:2 sins of the whole world
Rom_5:6 the ungodly
2Pe_2:1 false teachers
Mat_20:28 many
Joh_11:50-51 Israel
Eph_5:25 the Church
Gal_2:20 “me”

The word propitiation used in 1 JOHN 2:2 pertains to the blood sprinkled on the alter not the death.

The shed blood was for all sin, hence is is by belief and not by works of the law one that has eternal life.

However, John 1 established that neither heritage, strength or will of the humans empowers one to be the child of God.

Therefore salvation is by the unmerited favor of God (grace) and the death and resurrection only benefit the believers.

Shed blood for all sin, but the death and resurrection are for believers.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair :
I'd like to make one more set of replies to you in order to help clarify something;
You make this statement below:


Respectfully,
and notwithstanding that I see a contradiction in the underlined that if God requires faith from us before He can save us, it makes salvation actually merited by our faith...

I agree that He was speaking of salvation in the passage that you've referenced ( John 6:26-29 ),
but I also see that you've connected faith as being the requirement that God sets before us, and you do so not realizing what the passage actually states:

" Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

If you want to believe that God believes for you or causes you to believe then that is your choice. You can read the bible any way that you want but since God is the one that says we have to have faith, note WE have to have faith and since faith is not a work or merit. I will stick with what the bible says and trust in Christ Jesus for my salvation.
As you say we will not be able to walk together on these matters. But I will pray that God opens your eyes to the truths of scripture. God Bless.

 

[Silverhair]

And of course this is 100% dishonest.

So now you are saying that Christ shed His blood for all so that all may have salvation not just a select few as Calvinism posits.

Also if you are going to quote something from a post it would be nice if you did it in context.

 

[Reformed1689]

So now you are saying that Christ shed His blood for all so that all may have salvation not just a select few as Calvinism posits.

Also if you are going to quote something from a post it would be nice if you did it in context.

No. I'm saying, as I always have, world has nothing to do with individuals.

 

[Silverhair]

The word propitiation used in 1 JOHN 2:2 pertains to the blood sprinkled on the alter not the death.

The shed blood was for all sin, hence is is by belief and not by works of the law one that has eternal life.

However, John 1 established that neither heritage, strength or will of the humans empowers one to be the child of God.

Therefore salvation is by the unmerited favor of God (grace) and the death and resurrection only benefit the believers.

Shed blood for all sin, but the death and resurrection are for believers.

And how does one become one of the believers as you understand it?

 

[Silverhair]

No. I'm saying, as I always have, world has nothing to do with individuals.

So just one question, did Christ Jesus come to save groups or individuals?

 

[Reformed1689]

So just one question, did Christ Jesus come to save groups or individuals?

You are trying to trap me into seemingly saying two things. The answer is, of course, both, depending on what context you are talking about. Stop playing semantics. The bottom line is this, Christ did NOT die for every individual that ever lived and the Bible does not claim this. There are a chosen few for salvation. Those are the ones He died for. The sheep.