Limited redeemed, not Limited redemption.

[Silverhair]

You are trying to trap me into seemingly saying two things. The answer is, of course, both, depending on what context you are talking about. Stop playing semantics. The bottom line is this, Christ did NOT die for every individual that ever lived and the Bible does not claim this. There are a chosen few for salvation. Those are the ones He died for. The sheep.

Not a trap just a question. But as you say Christ died only a select few so that means that everyone else is condemned to hell because He did not provide the means of salvation for them. So you are in disagreement with the text of scripture.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

 

[Reformed1689]

Not a trap just a question. But as you say Christ died only a select few so that means that everyone else is condemned to hell because He did not provide the means of salvation for them. So you are in disagreement with the text of scripture.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

I'm not in disagreement with anything. You and I have very different opinions of what all men means in that verse.

 

[Silverhair]

I'm not in disagreement with anything. You and I have very different opinions of what all men means in that verse.

Yes I know that but Christ Jesus came to save people not groups. Groups do not have faith, people do. That is the stumbling block that you have to get over

 

[Reformed1689]

Yes I know that but Christ Jesus came to save people not groups. Groups do not have faith, people do. That is the stumbling block that you have to get over

No it isn't because that is not my argument.

 

[Silverhair]

No it isn't because that is not my argument.

Then what is your argument?

 

[Reformed1689]

Then what is your argument?

I've given it a dozen times already.

 

[AustinC]

Not a trap just a question. But as you say Christ died only a select few so that means that everyone else is condemned to hell because He did not provide the means of salvation for them. So you are in disagreement with the text of scripture.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

The context defines how Paul is using the word "all."
Let us quote the full passage so you and others can see what Paul is driving at.

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
~ 1 Timothy 2:1-7

Paul is specifically reminding his readers that God can save all people, including rulers and authorities. Thus Jesus ransom is for all. He, by elective choice ransoms both the poor and the rich. Both the rulers and the slaves. Both the males and the females. God elects from all nations, tribes and tongues.
What this passage does not say is that all persons are ransomed at the cross by Jesus atoning sacrifice. If you think this passage is saying this then you are projecting into the passage.

 

[agedman]

And how does one become one of the believers as you understand it?

The Scriptures state that Salvation is by unmerited favor by the faith (belief - same Greek word)that comes to one who hears the Word and is empowered (indwelt) by the Holy Spirit. In effect, God causes them to be born again as a new creature that is created in Christ.

The purpose of which God redeems is revealed in the measure of “faith -belief” endowed by God for the benefit of the local assembly of believers.

Who knows where the Holy Spirit has been or where it may go; therefore, the sowers of seed scatter indiscriminately and the wind may push it any direction to those who have been given ears to hear.

I know this is a bit of a disjointed presentation, but my mind is not desiring to focus as well as I desire. Perhaps I will attend to this post later.

 

[Silverhair]

The context defines how Paul is using the word "all."
Let us quote the full passage so you and others can see what Paul is driving at.

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
~ 1 Timothy 2:1-7

Paul is specifically reminding his readers that God can save all people, including rulers and authorities. Thus Jesus ransom is for all. He, by elective choice ransoms both the poor and the rich. Both the rulers and the slaves. Both the males and the females. God elects from all nations, tribes and tongues.
What this passage does not say is that all persons are ransomed at the cross by Jesus atoning sacrifice. If you think this passage is saying this then you are projecting into the passage.

Once again you miss the obvious don't you. But at least you did bold it in red. The key word you keep missing is "DESIRES" God would like all people to come to repentance but as we can see not all will. But I notice that you were good enough to bold another important text "Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all,"
How you can avoid the clear text I do not understand. You have to decide are you going to trust the text or are you going to hold to your theology that denies the text.
One question that I have for you, when have I ever said that Christ Jesus' death ransoms all people? I have said and the bible agrees that His death on the cross and resurrection makes the salvation of all people possible through faith in Him.
Austin since you are a sinner the same as everyone else then this verse is for you also.
1Ti_1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
Now are you going to say that He only came to save some sinners and that He was only the ransom for some sinners?

 

[Silverhair]

The Scriptures state that Salvation is by unmerited favor by the faith (belief - same Greek word)that comes to one who hears the Word and is empowered (indwelt) by the Holy Spirit. In effect, God causes them to be born again as a new creature that is created in Christ.

I agree that we saved by Gods’ grace because of our faith in Christ Jesus just as scripture says. Eph 1:13 “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,”
That’s a clear statement of the way of salvation. Where I differ from you is that as the text says we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit after we believe not so that we will believe.

The purpose of which God redeems is revealed in the measure of “faith -belief” endowed by God for the benefit of the local assembly of believers.

I think the purpose of God is 1] we are not to be conformed to the world Rom_12:2. And 2] to be conformed to “His glorious body” Php_3:21, and Paul stated this clearly in Rom_8:29 “...He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son...”
That is the purpose of which God redeems us. Christ Jesus is to be the first born of many. God wants us to be like Christ Jesus.

Who knows where the Holy Spirit has been or where it may go; therefore, the sowers of seed scatter indiscriminately and the wind may push it any direction to those who have been given ears to hear.

When we see “ears to hear, let him hear!” in scripture we could paraphrase it as, if you are willing to hear what I say then do so. God does not force us to heed His word, or believe the gospel message. God expects us to exercise our free will and make a choice.

I know this is a bit of a disjointed presentation, but my mind is not desiring to focus as well as I desire. Perhaps I will attend to this post later.[/QUOTE]

First time I tried your way of posting and adding comment into the quote. Thanks agedman for the tip.

 

[AustinC]

Once again you miss the obvious don't you. But at least you did bold it in red. The key word you keep missing is "DESIRES" God would like all people to come to repentance but as we can see not all will. But I notice that you were good enough to bold another important text "Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all,"
How you can avoid the clear text I do not understand. You have to decide are you going to trust the text or are you going to hold to your theology that denies the text.
One question that I have for you, when have I ever said that Christ Jesus' death ransoms all people? I have said and the bible agrees that His death on the cross and resurrection makes the salvation of all people possible through faith in Him.
Austin since you are a sinner the same as everyone else then this verse is for you also.
1Ti_1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
Now are you going to say that He only came to save some sinners and that He was only the ransom for some sinners?

First, everyone can read my post and see I didn't avoid anything. In fact I addressed what you avoided by adding the verses you neglected to add, which give context to Paul's writing.
Second, you introduce another strawman, by implying I am not aware of being a sinner. Yet, again, however, you neglect to show Paul's context. Let's take a look.

I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service, though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.
~ 1 Timothy 1:12-16

Notice that Paul is appointed. Faith and love come from Jesus. Jesus came to save sinners.
Notice that it doesn't say that Jesus came to save all sinners. Do you see that.

Silverhair, some sinners are appointed for redemption and some are not. The text is sufficient to show you this truth.

 

[agedman]

I agree that we saved by Gods’ grace because of our faith in Christ Jesus just as scripture says. Eph 1:13 “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,”
That’s a clear statement of the way of salvation. Where I differ from you is that as the text says we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit after we believe not so that we will believe.



I think the purpose of God is 1] we are not to be conformed to the world Rom_12:2. And 2] to be conformed to “His glorious body” Php_3:21, and Paul stated this clearly in Rom_8:29 “...He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son...”
That is the purpose of which God redeems us. Christ Jesus is to be the first born of many. God wants us to be like Christ Jesus.



When we see “ears to hear, let him hear!” in scripture we could paraphrase it as, if you are willing to hear what I say then do so. God does not force us to heed His word, or believe the gospel message. God expects us to exercise our free will and make a choice.


First time I tried your way of posting and adding comment into the quote. Thanks agedman for the tip.

Your welcome.

I am not certain the debate about the timing is worthy, for it is agreed that, without the work of God in drawing, preparing, and presenting the righteousness and judgement not any would ever be saved.

It is a credible view that some manner of belief is prerequisite to the empowering (John 1) and that belief is the key to everlasting life, (John 3); however, it is also credible that the Scriptures declare the Father first gives those who will come to the Son (John 6).

Throughout John 6 the Lord Jesus stated that those who saw Him still didn’t believe, that the ones the Father gives would. So the question becomes, which comes first, the action of the Father or belief?

For me, it is the Father’s gift to give, not any merit on my part, therefore, redemption is totally of the Father. For Jesus stated that unless the Father draws none would come to Him. I view this drawing as being a separate work from that of either the draw of the cross or the common work given to the Holy Spirit toward all in this world. Though I could be wrong, when something is mentioned more than once it is a foundational truth.

Here is a statement from John 6 to illustrate:

61Aware that His disciples were grumbling about this teaching, Jesus asked them, “Does this offend you? 62Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?63The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64However, there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)65Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.”​

Therefore, the Scriptures do present solid statements that human capacity is incapable to expressing belief without the direct work of the Word giving life, in which then belief can be expressed.

Just as John states, the power of the Word is Life, and, according to the Christ, only those the Father gives the Son are given that life to believe.

This is why the believers must be witnesses and delivering the Scriptures even in casual encounters.

 

[Silverhair]

First, everyone can read my post and see I didn't avoid anything. In fact I addressed what you avoided by adding the verses you neglected to add, which give context to Paul's writing.

What you avoid is the clear text and read into it what you want to see. But they can read Post # 129 and see for themselves what I was pointing out that you avoid.

Second, you introduce another strawman, by implying I am not aware of being a sinner.

Touchy are we? You failed to add that I said we are all sinners. Are you looking for some sympathy because your feelings got hurt. Try being a bit less disingenuous with your comments. You do realize that not everything I write on here is about you.

Yet, again, however, you neglect to show Paul's context. Let's take a look.

I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service, though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.
~ 1 Timothy 1:12-16

Notice that Paul is appointed. Faith and love come from Jesus. Jesus came to save sinners.

So we are in agreement that Paul was appointed but we should ask why was he appointed? The answer “because he judged me faithful G4103” Thayer tells us that G4103 means:

2b) in the NT one who trusts in God’s promises

2b1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead

2b2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation

So Paul was formerly a bad person. But now is saved. Paul goes on to tell us that as a result of his being saved by Gods grace his whole life changed. From bad to super good “the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant”. He went from unbelief to a super faith and love of Christ Jesus. And this was shown by his willingness to suffer for the gospel message.

Notice that it doesn't say that Jesus came to save all sinners. Do you see that.

I have to ask why do you struggle so much with the text. Christ Jesus came to save sinners, Paul preached the gospel so that those that heard it and accepted the truth and trusted in Christ Jesus would be saved. Will all sinners be saved NO but those that trust in Christ Jesus will. Read post # 129 again because you have missed most of what I said or else you are just ignoring what I said and are misstating my comments.

Christ Jesus came to save all those that believe. Do you not see that?

Silverhair, some sinners are appointed for redemption and some are not. The text is sufficient to show you this truth.

Austin, the sinners that are appointed for redemption are those that place their trust in Christ Jesus those that reject Him are condemned. I know it is hard for you to accept but the bible is clear:

Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

I do agree the text is sufficient to show you this truth. I am not sure how much clearer the bible could be before you will accept what it says.

 

[Silverhair]

Your welcome.

I am not certain the debate about the timing is worthy, for it is agreed that, without the work of God in drawing, preparing, and presenting the righteousness and judgement not any would ever be saved.

It is a credible view that some manner of belief is prerequisite to the empowering (John 1) and that belief is the key to everlasting life, (John 3); however, it is also credible that the Scriptures declare the Father first gives those who will come to the Son (John 6).

Throughout John 6 the Lord Jesus stated that those who saw Him still didn’t believe, that the ones the Father gives would. So the question becomes, which comes first, the action of the Father or belief?

For me, it is the Father’s gift to give, not any merit on my part, therefore, redemption is totally of the Father. For Jesus stated that unless the Father draws none would come to Him. I view this drawing as being a separate work from that of either the draw of the cross or the common work given to the Holy Spirit toward all in this world. Though I could be wrong, when something is mentioned more than once it is a foundational truth.

Here is a statement from John 6 to illustrate:

61Aware that His disciples were grumbling about this teaching, Jesus asked them, “Does this offend you? 62Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?63The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64However, there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)65Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.”​

Therefore, the Scriptures do present solid statements that human capacity is incapable to expressing belief without the direct work of the Word giving life, in which then belief can be expressed.

Just as John states, the power of the Word is Life, and, according to the Christ, only those the Father gives the Son are given that life to believe.

This is why the believers must be witnesses and delivering the Scriptures even in casual encounters.

Just a quick response.

How are people drawn to God? Well I see several things pointed out in the text.
1] 1Th_1:5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance,
Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

As Christians we are to be both salt and light in this world. The preaching of the gospel, our lives, creation these all work to draw people to God. As I see it if these things were not meant, by God, to be used in this way then why are we told to be salt & light and why preach and why does God say man is without excuse.

 

[Salty]

Six hour notice

This thread will be closed no sooner than 6 am EST / 3 am PST ( Mon)

 

[AustinC]

What you avoid is the clear text and read into it what you want to see. But they can read Post # 129 and see for themselves what I was pointing out that you avoid.



Touchy are we? You failed to add that I said we are all sinners. Are you looking for some sympathy because your feelings got hurt. Try being a bit less disingenuous with your comments. You do realize that not everything I write on here is about you.



So we are in agreement that Paul was appointed but we should ask why was he appointed? The answer “because he judged me faithful G4103” Thayer tells us that G4103 means:

2b) in the NT one who trusts in God’s promises

2b1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead

2b2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation

So Paul was formerly a bad person. But now is saved. Paul goes on to tell us that as a result of his being saved by Gods grace his whole life changed. From bad to super good “the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant”. He went from unbelief to a super faith and love of Christ Jesus. And this was shown by his willingness to suffer for the gospel message.



I have to ask why do you struggle so much with the text. Christ Jesus came to save sinners, Paul preached the gospel so that those that heard it and accepted the truth and trusted in Christ Jesus would be saved. Will all sinners be saved NO but those that trust in Christ Jesus will. Read post # 129 again because you have missed most of what I said or else you are just ignoring what I said and are misstating my comments.

Christ Jesus came to save all those that believe. Do you not see that?



Austin, the sinners that are appointed for redemption are those that place their trust in Christ Jesus those that reject Him are condemned. I know it is hard for you to accept but the bible is clear:

Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

I do agree the text is sufficient to show you this truth. I am not sure how much clearer the bible could be before you will accept what it says.

It is interesting that you are almost a Calvinist. You even espouse much of Reformed theology in this post. Where you add from your philosophy, that is not in the text, is the idea that humans "accept" Christ. It's not found in the 1 Timothy text and it's not found elsewhere.
What we see is God doing the causing of belief. Even you point to this truth...but then you throw in the word "accept" when it's not there. May I ask why you feel the need to add what isn't provided in the text?

 

[Silverhair]

It is interesting that you are almost a Calvinist. You even espouse much of Reformed theology in this post. Where you add from your philosophy, that is not in the text, is the idea that humans "accept" Christ. It's not found in the 1 Timothy text and it's not found elsewhere.
What we see is God doing the causing of belief. Even you point to this truth...but then you throw in the word "accept" when it's not there. May I ask why you feel the need to add what isn't provided in the text?

May I ask why you refuse to accept the text of the bible? See even a Calvinist will sometimes get close to what the bible says. You just have to let go of the other errors that you hold on to. If you do not see that God requires faith before salvation then you need to do more study. It's there you just have to remove the Calvinist glasses first so you can see it.

 

[AustinC]

May I ask why you refuse to accept the text of the bible? See even a Calvinist will sometimes get close to what the bible says. You just have to let go of the other errors that you hold on to. If you do not see that God requires faith before salvation then you need to do more study. It's there you just have to remove the Calvinist glasses first so you can see it.

I accept the text just fine.
I find your addition of the word..."accept"...into the text to be a curious addition. Why do you add that?
You were so close to receiving the text as is. You pointed out that God does the work of saving. Why do you add what isn't there?
It seems you need to remove your free will glasses so you can see that the word "accept" is not in the text.

 

[Silverhair]

I accept the text just fine.
I find your addition of the word..."accept"...into the text to be a curious addition. Why do you add that?
You were so close to receiving the text as is. You pointed out that God does the work of saving. Why do you add what isn't there?
It seems you need to remove your free will glasses so you can see that the word "accept" is not in the text.

Not sure how you keep missing the point of the text.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Notice Believe & Not Believe those are things people have to do, that is unless you think God does it for them?

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

There it is again, the people have to do something. Strange how the bible keeps pointing that out.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

This is becoming repetitive, God just wants us to know that we have to do something, we have to believe.

Just trust the scriptures Austin. You said that you at one time believed in free will, well I think if you just trust the text you will find that it is what the bible is teaching.

 

[agedman]

Just a quick response.

How are people drawn to God? Well I see several things pointed out in the text.
1] 1Th_1:5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance,
Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

As Christians we are to be both salt and light in this world. The preaching of the gospel, our lives, creation these all work to draw people to God. As I see it if these things were not meant, by God, to be used in this way then why are we told to be salt & light and why preach and why does God say man is without excuse.

I can agree with a part of your approach; however, it seems that John’s point of reciting the Lord Jesus’s statements multiple times is to declare the belief (faith - both words translated from “pistis”) is endowed by God by the Word, given to those with ears to hear. This is reinforced in Romans. Belief comes by hearing the Word. Is it not obvious that many do not hear, for they are unprepared? Consider the parable of the seed and sower. The owner of the dirt is the one who decides what area is prepared for planting and the condition of and use of the rest of the ground, does he not?

On another thread, there is a section concerning the book of life.

From reading the presentation of the posters, the presentation found in Scriptures is that the Book of Life was before Adam, that although there are Scriptures concerning the blotting out of names, there is none that have any name added to the book. Therefore, any name in the book was written prior to Adam.

So when Christ speaks with authority about the Father giving the name to the Son of those who will be saved, it must be because of of the Word implanting belief and not some human innate hope so that more often fails to materialize.

I am not picking at your view, but trying to align it with the Statements of Scripture, and so far there is part that does and some that doesn’t.

However, you may also be one who holds to a preceding or prevenient Grace thinking. I do not, for again, it isn’t found by either statement or example in Scriptures, and research shows it a human desired scheme to avoid acknowledgement of the total human inability as a slave sold on the auction block of Sin to Utterly Depraved.

So, this discussion thread will end soon, and perhaps we can figure out where we agree and differ on another thread.